How fooked up our Govt is

[the750]

a business pays tax on profits and they also pass on sales tax (if they are one that collects it). those are 2 different things all together.

[the750]

Originally Posted by thatguy

what 401k statement??? Are you referring to the payroll tax comment? The medicare/medicaid FICA "matching" contributions that your employer makes along with your chunk from your paycheck?

Taxes are an expense of business, increase the expenses involved with doing business and the final product of that business costs more.

For example: if you are operating a business and you make $60K a year as the business owner, you're doing ok. Now the government (state or fed, whatever) says your business is now subject to a new tax that will set the business back $30k a year. Where do you get the money to pay said tax? Your own salary (aka shareholders)? Probably not! Cut employees, maybe? Try to save on overhead, you should be doing this already. Or do you pass the cost of this new expense on through the price of the product you produce? So who just payed the new tax? The end consumer!

well, generally, 100% of your cash flow comes from your customers AKA your sales... so obviously they pay your taxes. but why would you put it that way? if you wanted to look that deep into it, where do they get their money? and where does that source get it's money? it's cyclical.

[Zoomzoomers]

I'm not an accountant, but I do recall from school that businesses can and do pass the cost of doing business, yes along with some taxes, onto the end user, the customer. But this is not always the case. Most of the time they absorb this as a part of doing business.

I do understand, somewhat, of what he's trying to get at, but generally everyone and entity pays taxes on profits. From there things get complicated.

[thatguy]

Originally Posted by Zoomzoomers

I'm not an accountant, but I do recall from school that businesses can and do pass the cost of doing business, yes along with some taxes, onto the end user, the customer. But this is not always the case. Most of the time they absorb this as a part of doing business.

I do understand, somewhat, of what he's trying to get at, but generally everyone and entity pays taxes on profits. From there things get complicated.

But it doesn't have to be complicated!!!!
Please take the time to read up on the FairTax website, hell I'll mail you the book...

[the750]

my room mate is a CPA. i guess i could ask him his take... if i get bored this afternoon i will.

[jayelleseven]

Originally Posted by Gardiner

NationMaster - Gross National Income (per capita) (most recent) by country

#1 Luxembourg: $37,499.20 per person
#2 Switzerland: $36,987.60 per person
#3 Japan: $35,474.10 per person
#4 Norway: $35,053.30 per person
#5 United States: $33,070.30 per person
#6 Denmark: $30,191.50 per person
#7 Iceland: $27,473.80 per person
#8 Sweden: $25,105.50 per person
#9 United Kingdom: $24,486.70 per person
#10 Austria: $23,824.10 per person
#11 Netherlands: $23,770.30 per person
#12 Belgium: $23,639.50 per person
#13 Finland: $23,549.70 per person
#14 Germany: $23,534.80 per person
#15 France: $22,751.30 per person
#16 Ireland: $21,846.50 per person
#17 Brunei: $20,823.10 per person
#18 Canada: $20,789.50 per person
#19 Singapore: $20,066.00 per person
#20 Italy: $19,276.10 per person
#21 Australia: $19,213.50 per person
#22 United Arab Emirates: $19,198.30 per person
#23 Israel: $17,046.40 per person
#24 Kuwait: $15,992.20 per person
#25 French Polynesia: $15,023.50 per person
#26 Bahamas, The: $15,019.20 per person
#27 New Caledonia: $14,793.00 per person
#28 Spain: $14,575.70 per person
#29 New Zealand: $12,639.40 per person
#30 Cyprus: $12,013.60 per person
#31 Greece: $11,342.30 per person
#32 Puerto Rico: $10,752.20 per person
#33 Bahrain: $10,527.10 per person
#34 Portugal: $10,316.10 per person
#35 Slovenia: $9,670.48 per person
#36 Barbados: $9,373.50 per person
#37 Malta: $9,125.77 per person
#38 Antigua and Barbuda: $9,121.25 per person
#39 Saint Kitts and Nevis: $7,669.53 per person
#40 Trinidad and Tobago: $7,263.99 per person
#41 Saudi Arabia: $6,851.39 per person
#42 Seychelles: $6,628.55 per person
#43 Argentina: $6,575.95 per person
#44 Palau: $6,512.14 per person
#45 Uruguay: $5,617.49 per person
#46 Czech Republic: $5,303.18 per person
#47 Mexico: $5,178.76 per person
#48 Oman: $4,961.89 per person
#49 Hungary: $4,912.72 per person
#50 Lebanon: $4,596.19 per person
#51 Croatia: $4,429.86 per person
#52 Chile: $4,418.94 per person
#53 Poland: $4,253.33 per person
#54 Grenada: $4,051.06 per person
#55 Estonia: $3,956.04 per person
#56 Costa Rica: $3,913.18 per person
#57 Slovakia: $3,739.12 per person
#58 Mauritius: $3,730.45 per person
#59 Saint Lucia: $3,721.13 per person
#60 Dominica: $3,334.73 per person
#61 Latvia: $3,330.97 per person
#62 Malaysia: $3,311.76 per person
#63 Lithuania: $3,239.50 per person
#64 Botswana: $3,201.68 per person
#65 Panama: $3,011.20 per person
#66 Gabon: $2,861.97 per person
#67 Brazil: $2,842.36 per person
#68 South Africa: $2,751.22 per person
#69 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines: $2,698.74 per person
#70 Jamaica: $2,652.31 per person
#71 Belize: $2,586.68 per person
#72 Turkey: $2,397.32 per person
#73 Dominican Republic: $2,094.46 per person
#74 Tunisia: $1,983.58 per person
#75 Fiji: $1,964.59 per person
#76 Marshall Islands: $1,944.34 per person
#77 El Salvador: $1,943.43 per person
#78 Colombia: $1,898.58 per person
#79 Peru: $1,869.56 per person
#80 Thailand: $1,838.41 per person
#81 Bulgaria: $1,777.28 per person
#82 Russia: $1,764.05 per person
#83 Suriname: $1,737.69 per person
#84 Romania: $1,729.37 per person
#85 Namibia: $1,728.70 per person
#86 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: $1,690.26 per person
#87 Guatemala: $1,628.86 per person
#88 Maldives: $1,608.95 per person
#89 Algeria: $1,568.55 per person
#90 Jordan: $1,525.17 per person
#91 Samoa: $1,465.18 per person
#92 Cape Verde: $1,425.97 per person
#93 Tonga: $1,371.78 per person
#94 Kazakhstan: $1,322.15 per person
#95 Belarus: $1,248.60 per person
#96 Swaziland: $1,219.70 per person
#97 Djibouti: $1,199.84 per person
#98 Paraguay: $1,196.42 per person
#99 Albania: $1,189.14 per person
#100 Bosnia and Herzegovina: $1,137.01 per person
#101 Morocco: $1,059.75 per person
#102 Ecuador: $1,044.44 per person
#103 Turkmenistan: $1,038.53 per person
#104 Vanuatu: $1,030.82 per person
#105 Syria: $935.58 per person
#106 Philippines: $920.19 per person
#107 Bolivia: $911.32 per person
#108 China: $865.03 per person
#109 Guyana: $837.39 per person
#110 Honduras: $827.22 per person
#111 Sri Lanka: $817.91 per person
#112 Ukraine: $748.67 per person
#113 Kiribati: $747.44 per person
#114 Armenia: $728.13 per person
#115 Azerbaijan: $665.89 per person
#116 Georgia: $661.75 per person
#117 Equatorial Guinea: $618.21 per person
#118 Indonesia: $599.24 per person
#119 Cote d'Ivoire: $593.05 per person
#120 Angola: $567.12 per person
#121 Papua New Guinea: $545.74 per person
#122 Lesotho: $541.12 per person
#123 Uzbekistan: $514.73 per person
#124 Cameroon: $514.49 per person
#125 Zimbabwe: $506.89 per person
#126 Haiti: $480.52 per person
#127 Solomon Islands: $469.50 per person
#128 India: $441.56 per person
#129 Senegal: $405.06 per person
#130 Vietnam: $392.19 per person
#131 Pakistan: $369.70 per person
#132 Mongolia: $344.88 per person
#133 Bangladesh: $336.87 per person
#134 Guinea: $332.07 per person
#135 Nicaragua: $326.20 per person
#136 Moldova: $326.08 per person
#137 Comoros: $326.06 per person
#138 Mauritania: $323.77 per person
#139 Benin: $316.89 per person
#140 Kenya: $315.04 per person
#141 Zambia: $295.52 per person
#142 Nigeria: $288.37 per person
#143 Kyrgyzstan: $268.28 per person
#144 Gambia, The: $267.23 per person
#145 Sudan: $266.32 per person
#146 Ghana: $261.97 per person
#147 Tanzania: $255.97 per person
#148 Cambodia: $244.90 per person
#149 Bhutan: $236.95 per person
#150 Togo: $236.79 per person
#151 Central African Republic: $235.62 per person
#152 Madagascar: $232.47 per person
#153 Sao Tome and Principe: $228.29 per person
#154 Rwanda: $223.77 per person
#155 Mali: $219.55 per person
#156 Uganda: $217.40 per person
#157 Nepal: $210.66 per person
#158 Mozambique: $195.82 per person
#159 Burkina Faso: $187.64 per person
#160 Chad: $164.90 per person
#161 Niger: $162.89 per person
#162 Liberia: $158.32 per person
#163 Tajikistan: $153.77 per person
#164 Eritrea: $145.39 per person
#165 Guinea-Bissau: $141.02 per person
#166 Malawi: $134.28 per person
#167 Sierra Leone: $118.20 per person
#168 Ethiopia: $91.37 per person
#169 Burundi: $88.82 per person
#170 Libya: $0.00 per person
#171 Iraq: $0.00 per person
#172 Somalia: $0.00 per person

Interesting. Back in 05 the US and lux were in the top spots.

I learned all about this in my Econ Development course.. intriguing stuff

I cant believe how low the lowest are.... (bottom 10 or so)

[thatguy]

Originally Posted by the750

my room mate is a CPA. i guess i could ask him his take... if i get bored this afternoon i will.

were you ever inclined to ask?

[the750]

Originally Posted by thatguy

were you ever inclined to ask?

no i forgot what i was going to ask. is it just if businesses pay taxes (besides sales and employee income)? if so, i know they do in general. i used to own a business and one year i did not pay taxes because i had so many write offs. then again, it was an S-Corp which has many more tax advantages than a regular C-Corp. but big business cannot operate as an S-Corp. other years though, i did pay taxes. or is the question whether or not biz are allowed to pass taxes on to their customers? either way, it will be passed on in one way or another. anyways let me know and ill ask.

[Gardiner]

I watched Obama last night when he was at the forum event, he said that a family that makes $150,000 a year is rich. He then added that a family making over $250,000 a year is in the top 3-4% in the US.

He also mentioned about how a lot of deductions would be eliminated. That could mean that a family that a family that made $160,000 a year gross and brought it down to to $130,000 net might be above $150,000 a year net and thus be taxed higher.

I know a lot of families, husbands and wives that both work for the same IT company that make over $70,000 a year each. If you ask them if they are rich they will tell you they are not.

[thatguy]

Originally Posted by the750

no i forgot what i was going to ask. is it just if businesses pay taxes (besides sales and employee income)? if so, i know they do in general. i used to own a business and one year i did not pay taxes because i had so many write offs. then again, it was an S-Corp which has many more tax advantages than a regular C-Corp. but big business cannot operate as an S-Corp. other years though, i did pay taxes. or is the question whether or not biz are allowed to pass taxes on to their customers? either way, it will be passed on in one way or another. anyways let me know and ill ask.

that or the FairTax...

[Gardiner]

The Fair Tax would be so great, if you spend your money you pay tax, if you invest it in stocks, bonds or even savings account our economy grows. If you are poor, you end up paying no tax with the prebates, it is so great.

[Zoomzoomers]

Out tax laws are so messed up it's no wonder it takes an army of lawyers to get through it all. I'd like to see something like Europe's VAT tax system implemented. I mean if you use/spend then you pay. If you decide not to use/spend then you don't. I think it's pretty simple, but knowing our country they'll fu*k that up too. You just wait and see.

[thatguy]

Originally Posted by Zoomzoomers

Out tax laws are so messed up it's no wonder it takes an army of lawyers to get through it all. I'd like to see something like Europe's VAT tax system implemented. I mean if you use/spend then you pay. If you decide not to use/spend then you don't. I think it's pretty simple, but knowing our country they'll fu*k that up too. You just wait and see.

And each of them will come up with a different answer

you really need to read the FairTax if you think the VAT is a good idea.
They are similar since they are both based upon a consumption tax.
The VAT has problems since every step is taxed so if the rate is changed by a minute amount the change gets effectively multiplied due to the number of steps at which it is collected. With the FairTax new items are taxed once at the final sale.

[Zoomzoomers]

Originally Posted by thatguy

And each of them will come up with a different answer

you really need to read the FairTax if you think the VAT is a good idea.
They are similar since they are both based upon a consumption tax.
The VAT has problems since every step is taxed so if the rate is changed by a minute amount the change gets effectively multiplied due to the number of steps at which it is collected. With the FairTax new items are taxed once at the final sale.

Well if they would tax you once for VAT then it might make some sense, but I do agree that they'll find a way to f**k us either way.

One thing I'd love to see changed is the property tax.

[thatguy]

Originally Posted by Zoomzoomers

Well if they would tax you once for VAT then it might make some sense, but I do agree that they'll find a way to f**k us either way.

One thing I'd love to see changed is the property tax.

VAT at one point would be essentially the same as the FairTax, since the most logical point to collect it would be at the final sale. Since 45ish states already collect sales tax implementing another would be fairly seamless (as government projects go anyway)


I know what you mean, you never really "own" your property cause if you don't pay the government they come and take it...that's BS!