Well it determines fault, but it doesn't address mitigating circumstances, such as you going through an intersection to clear way for an ambulance. If it's several weeks down the road, can you state for a fact what the license plate of the ambulance was?
The cameras cannot also tell if you are the person driving the car. It tickets the car. What about that friggen blinding flash? If it's at night you could get blinded and whack something. I tell you what, I've seen it go off during the daytime here and I had trouble seeing (during the day!!!).
That is something I don't know how they get away with.....ticking the car not the driver. I wonder if they have to also get a shot of the driver? I'm pretty sure the make and model of the car must clearly be seen along with the license plate.
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2005 Coupe 6MT / Laser Red / Graphite / Premium & Aero Package / Sirius / Clear Corners / Z-Tube + K&N Filter / Copper Iso Thermal MREV
Clearly GZ speeds and runs red lights and doesn't want these cameras so he won't get caught.
I have 1 ticket in 20 years of driving. I got the ticket because I was hauling ass to golf. 05:30 AM on H2. No one on the road except me and the cop.
She pulls me over and tells me sorry, but they are cracking down since one of their patrol guys in their stealth Camaros cracked up chasing a speeder (in that area). How on earth you outrun a Camaro and the cop can't drive without cracking up is beyond me.
Now 14cent, let me explain something to you. I have approximately 6 credits in traffic/transportation design. When guys start spoon feeding things to me and saying things aren't safe without hard raw data I get suspicious.
I get more suspicious when the legislators still want this despite the overwhelming majority of Hawaii not wanting it. Isn't it the job of the legislators to listen to the will of their constituents? Why are they trying to cram this down our throats? The answer is $$$$. Cameras generate a lot of money without having to train and hire people. There is no police officer to train, no police presence needed, just a ticket in the mail.
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Now I'm just laid bad - G35Princess
R.I.P. MBC
We have cameras here and they are a joke. How do you expect rush hour to move when you put them up at super busy intersections that are so congested you get stuck in the middle of an intersection???
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03 6mt sedan- 1/2 spacer, z-tube, exhaust and some dirt.....
I have 1 ticket in 20 years of driving. I got the ticket because I was hauling ass to golf. 05:30 AM on H2. No one on the road except me and the cop.
She pulls me over and tells me sorry, but they are cracking down since one of their patrol guys in their stealth Camaros cracked up chasing a speeder (in that area). How on earth you outrun a Camaro and the cop can't drive without cracking up is beyond me.
Now 14cent, let me explain something to you. I have approximately 6 credits in traffic/transportation design. When guys start spoon feeding things to me and saying things aren't safe without hard raw data I get suspicious.
I get more suspicious when the legislators still want this despite the overwhelming majority of Hawaii not wanting it. Isn't it the job of the legislators to listen to the will of their constituents? Why are they trying to cram this down our throats? The answer is $$$$. Cameras generate a lot of money without having to train and hire people. There is no police officer to train, no police presence needed, just a ticket in the mail.
There is an intersection here in Northeast Philly that was named America's most dangerous intersection. So the city set up a trial run at this intersection with these cameras. They would catch people going through the red light but wouldn't ticket anyone yet at first. I guess to see how effective and how well they work. But eventually they started to ticket people and of course the number of people getting a ticket was high at first, but it slowly declined. Since they were put up, the cameras have been effective in reducing the number of vehicle and pedestrian accidents at this intersection. So there is some hard proof that it works.
You only start worrying about shit like this if you believe you might be doing something wrong. For instance, when you are speeding, you get that little bit of anxiety because you know its wrong and if you get caught, you'll pay the price. So if you are worrying about these cameras, it seems to me that you are worrying a lot because you might be in the situation where you go through a red light and be caught. If you don't put yourself in that kind of situation, then you have nothing to worry about with these cameras.
And of course I know these are money makers.
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2005 Coupe 6MT / Laser Red / Graphite / Premium & Aero Package / Sirius / Clear Corners / Z-Tube + K&N Filter / Copper Iso Thermal MREV
There is an intersection here in Northeast Philly that was named America's most dangerous intersection. So the city set up a trial run at this intersection with these cameras. They would catch people going through the red light but wouldn't ticket anyone yet at first. I guess to see how effective and how well they work. But eventually they started to ticket people and of course the number of people getting a ticket was high at first, but it slowly declined. Since they were put up, the cameras have been effective in reducing the number of vehicle and pedestrian accidents at this intersection. So there is some hard proof that it works.
This may be the case. However were any of the signal timings changed to address the root cause? For example the optimal timing for intersections should not run more than 90 seconds through the entire cycle. In high volume intersections often politicians place pressure on DOT's to modify signal timing with the feeling that longer lights mean more vehicle flow..........wrong. By reducing timing on the lights you move cars slower, however with the reduced speeds you are able to get more total cars through since the spacing between vehicles are reduced. You can only run red lights at speed in that intersection if vehicle spacing is large. I feel that given your explanation that cars are running reds at speed that the signalization is probably really messed up. The overall signalization in the area should be adjusted to allow for good through bands for vehicles.
By having poor setup it is encouraging persons to run the light since they know they will need to sit for 5 minutes before their next light comes around.
I know it's counterintuitive, but it is human nature and in most cases the trend is as described above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infiniti514
You only start worrying about shit like this if you believe you might be doing something wrong. For instance, when you are speeding, you get that little bit of anxiety because you know its wrong and if you get caught, you'll pay the price. So if you are worrying about these cameras, it seems to me that you are worrying a lot because you might be in the situation where you go through a red light and be caught. If you don't put yourself in that kind of situation, then you have nothing to worry about with these cameras.
Incorrect. I know full well how idiotic politicians are. Mind you this is politically based. Ask an engineer and they can tell you that there are other traffic calming things to do, such as speed humps or turnabouts. No one has sufficiently explained how cameras will fully exhonorate persons who have extenuating circumstances. Again what if you need to get through the intersection because of an ambulance? The ticket shows up weeks after the fact, how can you get cleared?
What about equal attention paid to jaywalkers? How will you ticket them? They are 50% of the problem. Why are vehicles targeted more so than pedestrians. Now mind you we don't have city blocks like you guys. Down here we have so many traffic lights and so many crosswalks there is no excuse not to use them, but the cars are targeted. It is an unequal application of the law.
__________________
Now I'm just laid bad - G35Princess
R.I.P. MBC
This may be the case. However were any of the signal timings changed to address the root cause? For example the optimal timing for intersections should not run more than 90 seconds through the entire cycle. In high volume intersections often politicians place pressure on DOT's to modify signal timing with the feeling that longer lights mean more vehicle flow..........wrong. By reducing timing on the lights you move cars slower, however with the reduced speeds you are able to get more total cars through since the spacing between vehicles are reduced. You can only run red lights at speed in that intersection if vehicle spacing is large. I feel that given your explanation that cars are running reds at speed that the signalization is probably really messed up. The overall signalization in the area should be adjusted to allow for good through bands for vehicles.
By having poor setup it is encouraging persons to run the light since they know they will need to sit for 5 minutes before their next light comes around.
I know it's counterintuitive, but it is human nature and in most cases the trend is as described above.
I don't know enough about it to say whether or not the light timing was changed. But I'm sure they had their own experts looking into this when planning for the cameras. I understand what you are saying about encouraging people to run the light since they know its a long light. It is human nature. I know someones I get pissed if I missed a light knowing its a long one. But this argument is like saying, you leave your door unlocked, you are inviting criminals in.....even though you might be "encouraging" criminals to come in your home, that doesnt make what they are doing right....and they shouldn't be doing it regardless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GZire
Incorrect. I know full well how idiotic politicians are. Mind you this is politically based. Ask an engineer and they can tell you that there are other traffic calming things to do, such as speed humps or turnabouts. No one has sufficiently explained how cameras will fully exhonorate persons who have extenuating circumstances. Again what if you need to get through the intersection because of an ambulance? The ticket shows up weeks after the fact, how can you get cleared?
What about equal attention paid to jaywalkers? How will you ticket them? They are 50% of the problem. Why are vehicles targeted more so than pedestrians. Now mind you we don't have city blocks like you guys. Down here we have so many traffic lights and so many crosswalks there is no excuse not to use them, but the cars are targeted. It is an unequal application of the law.
In regards to the Ambulance thing, I'm sure they must have thought of this. I don't know what they would do in that case but I'm sure they have some kind of plan. If anything, the Ambulance would have a record of calls they went on on a daily bases and what time the calls came in and where at. I guess thats one way of placing the Ambulance at the intersection. But, it is a stretch.....so I don't know how it would work....but hopefully they do. And jaywalkers definitely are a huge problem.....and should be ticketed more often. Maybe cameras for the jaywalkers
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2005 Coupe 6MT / Laser Red / Graphite / Premium & Aero Package / Sirius / Clear Corners / Z-Tube + K&N Filter / Copper Iso Thermal MREV
I don't know enough about it to say whether or not the light timing was changed. But I'm sure they had their own experts looking into this when planning for the cameras. I understand what you are saying about encouraging people to run the light since they know its a long light. It is human nature. I know someones I get pissed if I missed a light knowing its a long one. But this argument is like saying, you leave your door unlocked, you are inviting criminals in.....even though you might be "encouraging" criminals to come in your home, that doesnt make what they are doing right....and they shouldn't be doing it regardless.
See here's the point. Everywhere these camera guys go, you always get the same arguments. The legislators never address them. The experts give their recommendations and testimony, but the legislators do not follow the advice. It happens in every city these guys go to.
Again, the legislators are not treating the illness, they are treating the symptoms and trying to make money in the process. So if you have a cold and have the magic medicine to cure it, you don't give someone aspirin for the headache, antihistimine for the clogged nose, cough syrup for the cough.........you give them the pill to cure the cold.........no need for the money to treat the symptoms. In essence this is what is going on.
They need to listen to the DOT engineers who will recommend ammended traffic signal timing, coordinating amongst the traffic grid to move traffic, put in speed humps where called for, put in turnabouts, etc......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infiniti514
In regards to the Ambulance thing, I'm sure they must have thought of this. I don't know what they would do in that case but I'm sure they have some kind of plan. If anything, the Ambulance would have a record of calls they went on on a daily bases and what time the calls came in and where at. I guess thats one way of placing the Ambulance at the intersection. But, it is a stretch.....so I don't know how it would work....but hopefully they do. And jaywalkers definitely are a huge problem.....and should be ticketed more often. Maybe cameras for the jaywalkers
Let me put it to you this way. Do you think the company who administers the program has access to records of 911 calls? Do they know and do they have the authority to search records to eliminate items such as that?
Also, say you are stuck in an intersection because someone cuts you off. I often find myself in this situation because I do not enter the intersection unless it's clear, sure I get stuck sometimes because I'm not paying attention, but 90% of the time it's because I cannot see in front of the car in front and think the intersection is clear or some asshole who cannot and will not plan ahead changes lanes in the middle of the intersection screwing me over. Now when the camera goes off, who do you think is getting the ticket? It sure as hell isn't going to be the wrong-doer, it will be me.
If you have a trained and dutifully swarn officer of the law, he can make these distinctions, a camera cannot. In addition the operators of the cameras are not officers of the law, they are private citizens who get paid by the ticket. Down here the company suggested that this be eliminated, but the legislators declined, so the incentive to run up the tickets remained. Now if you shift this into a lumpsum agreement, the company still has a break even point, they need to put out X amount of tickets or they will lose money. Do you think they will lose money? I don't.
The camera ticket system is inherently flawed. I view it as a poor idea, one of the worst out there. People talk about gateway drugs, this is a gateway enforcement that can and will lead to worse applications for the cameras.
__________________
Now I'm just laid bad - G35Princess
R.I.P. MBC
See here's the point. Everywhere these camera guys go, you always get the same arguments. The legislators never address them. The experts give their recommendations and testimony, but the legislators do not follow the advice. It happens in every city these guys go to.
Again, the legislators are not treating the illness, they are treating the symptoms and trying to make money in the process. So if you have a cold and have the magic medicine to cure it, you don't give someone aspirin for the headache, antihistimine for the clogged nose, cough syrup for the cough.........you give them the pill to cure the cold.........no need for the money to treat the symptoms. In essence this is what is going on.
They need to listen to the DOT engineers who will recommend ammended traffic signal timing, coordinating amongst the traffic grid to move traffic, put in speed humps where called for, put in turnabouts, etc......
I understand what you are saying but your recommendations don't make the state money
Quote:
Originally Posted by GZire
Let me put it to you this way. Do you think the company who administers the program has access to records of 911 calls? Do they know and do they have the authority to search records to eliminate items such as that?
Also, say you are stuck in an intersection because someone cuts you off. I often find myself in this situation because I do not enter the intersection unless it's clear, sure I get stuck sometimes because I'm not paying attention, but 90% of the time it's because I cannot see in front of the car in front and think the intersection is clear or some asshole who cannot and will not plan ahead changes lanes in the middle of the intersection screwing me over. Now when the camera goes off, who do you think is getting the ticket? It sure as hell isn't going to be the wrong-doer, it will be me.
If you have a trained and dutifully swarn officer of the law, he can make these distinctions, a camera cannot. In addition the operators of the cameras are not officers of the law, they are private citizens who get paid by the ticket. Down here the company suggested that this be eliminated, but the legislators declined, so the incentive to run up the tickets remained. Now if you shift this into a lumpsum agreement, the company still has a break even point, they need to put out X amount of tickets or they will lose money. Do you think they will lose money? I don't.
The camera ticket system is inherently flawed. I view it as a poor idea, one of the worst out there. People talk about gateway drugs, this is a gateway enforcement that can and will lead to worse applications for the cameras.
Well, technically, if you get caught in that intersection its still ticketable (if thats a word). An officer could still write you a ticket...of course he would be a big cock if he did. Maybe down the road they will refine the system to take these things into account.
I don't know if I am really for or against the cameras. I don't really run into them so its not an issue. There are not that many in Philly and I live outside the city....so there are none in my neighborhood.
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2005 Coupe 6MT / Laser Red / Graphite / Premium & Aero Package / Sirius / Clear Corners / Z-Tube + K&N Filter / Copper Iso Thermal MREV
The bottom line is that tickets are for money. If you wanted people to drive the speed limit, you'd place Highway Patrol/Police in PLAIN VIEW (or driving along in traffic) with RADAR guns on all the time. People with RADAR detectors would slow down, and people without detectors would easily see the officer(s) and drive slowly.
Unfortunately, officers like to hide and use instant-on (or heaven forbid, POP) RADAR and LIDAR. This does NOT encourage "safer" driving, but it makes the government a lot more money. The cameras are the same way... Money money money.
BTW, if they mail you a ticket, and it "gets lost in the mail" (legitimately or not) then what? Do they stop you from renewing your registration/license or anything? I know they do that with parking tickets in California.
Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's all an effort by the gov't to collect more $$$ and improve the bottom line. Yeah, that bottom line they f*cked up in the first place.
I wish I still had the article but it was extremely enlightening about how gov'ts are using ROI's in determining legislation. WTF??? Did you hear me??? ROI's in creating law. Traffic cameras are just the start of it. Our forefathers created our gov't to serve the people, now it seems that the people exist to serve the gov't. This is just an example of it. Lawmakers no longer try to see how legislation can help people and preserve our way of life, they see it as a means to raise capital so they can go and waste it.
This same article mentioned how are tax dollars are spent. Now don't quote me on this as it was a while ago that I read it and I'm just estimating here, but it stated something like this...
Out of every $1 tax dollar collected...
$0.40 cents are used to pay our gov'ts creditors (i.e. deficit/loans/etc.)
$0.25 is just plain wasted in blunder by our law makers
$0.35 goes to actual spending (this includes defense/social spending/etc.)
Now in light of this I'd say our own gov't is less efficient that the worst charity organization that get's all sorts of flack for it being inefficient. Also, if a company was run like this the CEO/CFO and the entire management team would be thrown out by their shirt tails. Makes you think doesn't it? I know that we don't have Harvard MBA's running our country but it seems like we have every reject grad from city college running and managing our gov't/money/lives.
__________________ Don't fight with an ignorant because he will drag you down to his own level and beat you to death with his skills.
The bottom line is that tickets are for money. If you wanted people to drive the speed limit, you'd place Highway Patrol/Police in PLAIN VIEW (or driving along in traffic) with RADAR guns on all the time. People with RADAR detectors would slow down, and people without detectors would easily see the officer(s) and drive slowly.
Unfortunately, officers like to hide and use instant-on (or heaven forbid, POP) RADAR and LIDAR. This does NOT encourage "safer" driving, but it makes the government a lot more money. The cameras are the same way... Money money money.
BTW, if they mail you a ticket, and it "gets lost in the mail" (legitimately or not) then what? Do they stop you from renewing your registration/license or anything? I know they do that with parking tickets in California.
Lost mail or not receiving your summons in the mail is no excuse. You will still get a bench warrant. I've had this unfortunate experience. The judge doesn't care nor will he/she want to hear it. Yep, you just get fu*ked!
__________________ Don't fight with an ignorant because he will drag you down to his own level and beat you to death with his skills.
