first of, it was meant to be a rhetorical question which would not need an answer, but it would require personal pondering. but since you decided to write on it, i guess it's only courteous of me to respond:
first of, I'd just like to point out the fact that this is the second time i've heard the argument over who runs the nation from you; the first time it was appealing, now it's just getting old once again, i will tell you like i did the past time, it really makes little difference to me who runs the nation and who doesnt. once again, i will make referrence to our neighboring latin american nations down south, are you the least bit aware of the governments that exists in latin america? the corruption, lies, conspiracies and bringing down of the common people in order to maintain the aristrocrats? now explain to me why exactly would i want the same situation to be held here in the United States? if it's not broken, then why fix it? sure, i am fully aware that many people would love to see a black president, or at least a hispanic senator. But I am not going to sit here and argue why I feel that we must have black or hispanic governmental officials.
i understand the full extent of your argument which revolves around "the man is keeping us down." alright, fine, if that's the way you'd like to look at it. but look at yourself as an example, you're a successful minority who has defied the odds; same goes for me, same goes for many of the members on this forum. now, if the man is trying to keep us down, then why were we given this opportunity? now, im sure you're going to throw a comment that read somewhat loosely as follows:
"but smoke! my company HAD to hire me, it's in the regulations" blah blah blah...
or
"but smoke! i had the same qualifications as many other white guys, but i was looked over because i was black" blah blah blah...
guess what my friend, statistics show that the amount of graduating minorities is very, very low, especially in comparison to that of the whites. then why are you surprised that there exist more white men at the head of successful positions? are you suggesting that we should give high ranking jobs IMMEDIATELY to every black and latino that earns a degree, JUST BECAUSE, they're minorities? that's just not going to happen; and I for one, am surprised that you dont take this into consideration.
now that being said, once again i shall make referrence to your status, mines, and many other minority members of this forum; we're doing pretty well for ourselves. now, if the man was trying to keep us down, then why did we (somewhat) make it? trust me, there are a million ways that we could've been kept down, but we werent. that in itself should go to show you that's it's not an issue of being kept down, it's an issue of us as minorities bringing ourselves up. like you said, the 60's werent too long ago, it's a very slow process, give it time. never-the-less, that doesnt mean racism will ever come to an end, but I am trying to convey that most of the higher educated white men are not racist. who are the racists? the ignorant un-educated trailer trash white man. you're very right, i will be told several bad things in the south. what makes you think i already havent? i've had several tense racial situations in the carolina's, but it's always been the ignorant, uneducated white population that has proven themselves to be racists.
am i saying that all educated white men are not racist? no, that's definitedly not the case, but it is unlikely. am i saying that all trailer homes in georgia are filled with racist? no, i cant speak for all of them. what i am trying to say, is that you have to think about why and who the racists truly are.
to be honest, i attempt to shrug off racism. why? because I am not going to get anything out of a heated discussion. i suggest you do the same. if everyone were to take this same approach, then maybe we'd live in a happier country.
oh and btw, your metaphor of man vs. woman was very good. although once again, you did need to answer the question i posed
a couple of things...
our country's government is as "strong" as it is because of the piece of paper that's rotting away in that glass case in DC. it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the people who are currently in office. all of the riduculous scandals both sides have come up recently prove that very quickly. they're just as corrupt as billy bob in the carolinas that you had those "encounters" with.
secondly, i believe gamma took care of this one. why do so few minorities graduate from college? maybe it's 'cause the shitty edcation they get in grade school 'cause their school is in the middle of a poverty-stricken district who's kids, regardless of their race, have been neglected by the district they live in. some of that is because of the low amount of property tax collected in those areas, and some of it's that no one's ever given a damn about them. remember, it hasn't been too long since brown v board of education. this was, in terms of history, just a few minutes ago. i grew up with money, and i lived in a nice area. i also happened to have a mom with four college degrees, some from ivy league schools, so education was stressed in my family. the majority of minorities don't have that, so i really don't expect them to be able to do what you or i have done. the idea that education is important is learned, not genetic. that cycle has to be broken or i will continue to read about how my state is 15-20% black, yet 3% of the state's largest university is black.
quickly, as far as the few sentences in which you refer to something kin to affirmative action, gamma, ggirl, and i have all shot that down. affirmative action isn't about giving non-qualified minorities, women and ethnic, jobs over white guys. it's about making sure qualified minorities aren't passed over for no reason other than that they're minorities. the last thing i want is a bunch of ignorant people, regardless of their skin color or gender, running anything.
lastly, the racists are definitely ignorant. i agree with you there. the problem is, most of us are, by definition, racists. i'm not afraid of "the man." i get along with him well, but if i show up at his house with his daughter, i'm a "nigger." maybe he won't call me that to my face, but he probably will when i leave. i'm just calling it like i see it. i've heard more than one minority say, regardless of if they're an ethnic minority and/or a woman, that they had to work twice as hard as their non-minority counterpart to achieve the same level of success. my argument is a lot more than a bunch of talk about being afraid of the man. it's more about just calling things as they are.
it's rare that i get to write anything other than crap for business. i miss it. thanks for the practice. i also appreciate the debate smoke. don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to get into a heated argument with you. 'just throwing in two more cents.
-1-
p.s. who's "the man," and why is "he" referred to as such?
__________________
"these haters live for me to lose that's why i'm dyin' to win..."
I read your link . . . did you see this quote:
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"Racism here is quite subtle," e-mailed CNN.com reader Blair William, originally from Trinidad, who now lives in Lexington, South Carolina. "I think that the issue is twofold. I believe that white America's perception of blacks is still generally negative based on their limited interaction with blacks, whether this is via the media or in person. ...
"On the other hand, black Americans need to stop devaluing themselves and their people," he added. "Another race can only respect you if you respect yourself and currently, I find that blacks still devalue and disgrace each other and themselves."
______
I read your link . . . did you see this quote:
______
"Racism here is quite subtle," e-mailed CNN.com reader Blair William, originally from Trinidad, who now lives in Lexington, South Carolina. "I think that the issue is twofold. I believe that white America's perception of blacks is still generally negative based on their limited interaction with blacks, whether this is via the media or in person. ...
"On the other hand, black Americans need to stop devaluing themselves and their people," he added. "Another race can only respect you if you respect yourself and currently, I find that blacks still devalue and disgrace each other and themselves."
______
I think this is a good point.
i agree 100%, which is why i said that we should ignore racism. the more attention we pay to it, the longer it will live on, and the longer we cling on to it as an excuse.
i agree 100%, which is why i said that we should ignore racism. the more attention we pay to it, the longer it will live on, and the longer we cling on to it as an excuse.
So how exactly do we ignore it? How do I not get pissed about it Smoke? When I hear about people wanting to line up at the border and shoot migrants coming across the border . . . that stings man.
And I would of walked out on Michael Richards too.
Or when Trent Lott said this: ""I want to say this about my state: When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either." at the 100th birthday celebration of Strom Thurmond.
I won't ignore it Smoke and I'll fight someone for it. That fight doesn't have to be a battle of blows between us but rather me getting angry and doing something about it - legally or morally. My step-dad told me flat out that the only reason that I was being accepted to San Diego State was because I was Brown. He thought my grades weren't good enough to go college. Whatever man, I thought. I was going and I am so glad I went. For years I thought the reason I needed to graduate and become somewhat enlightened was to prove him wrong. To show him that this his brown step-son could succeed.
It wasn't until much later that I realized I was smarter than he was in many different ways and he was just old school. Highly ignorant and very racist, but very cut throat and he excelled in the business world because he was aggressive and fearless.
I give my Step-dad major credit for making me who I am today. I'm not going to shield my children from racism Smoke. No, instead, I will say that most people are good. If you treat yourself with respect and you respect others the way you want to be treated, good things will happen for you. However, there are always those people who are afraid of people being different. They are a minority, but it does exist.
Gamma, you stepdad had a problem with his brown step-son, but no problems with banging his brown mom?
How crude James.
I am Brown and my Mom is light skinned. I think it has to do more with the fact that he didn't like my Dad. By the way, my Step-Dad is 1/2 Filipino, 1/2 Irish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhohNumber2brb
and didn't Strom Thurman father an illigitamit(sp) child with a slave that was working on his family's farm some years back?
Not a slave. When he was 22 he had sex with his maid. He met his illigitimate daughter when she was 16. He did give her checks and paid for most of her care though a nephew. Not much is known outside of this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strom_thurmond
I read your link . . . did you see this quote:
______
"Racism here is quite subtle," e-mailed CNN.com reader Blair William, originally from Trinidad, who now lives in Lexington, South Carolina. "I think that the issue is twofold. I believe that white America's perception of blacks is still generally negative based on their limited interaction with blacks, whether this is via the media or in person. ...
"On the other hand, black Americans need to stop devaluing themselves and their people," he added. "Another race can only respect you if you respect yourself and currently, I find that blacks still devalue and disgrace each other and themselves."
______
I think this is a good point.
yes i read it, and i completely agree with those two thoughts. i don't want to seem like i'm giving blacks and/or minorities a complete pass on this. i still think, however, that for each black guy or other minority who gets on tv, commits a crime, or does something ignorant, etc. there have to be a few hundred thousand white guys doing the same for it to get the same emphasis. case in point, how many white kids or white men have to shoot up schools, blow shit up, steal people's retirement, get us in wars we shouldn't be in, fuck around with underage, same-sex interns, SHOOT AND PHYSICALLY ABUSE INNOCENT MINORITIES FOR NO REASON, etc before someone says something? OJ, as disgusting of a human being he is, somehow gets more pub than everything I listed in the sentence above for writing a book about the disgusting shit he did? WHAT THE HELL??? that's not right....even as deplorable as OJ is.
minorities have to do twice as much to achieve as much as non-minorities, yet they only have to do a small fraction of the wrong a a non-minority to get twice the heat from society. why?
anyways, the two thoughts boil down to a couple of things for me. one, there needs to be dialogue between both sides. a lot of this is just ignorance . stereotypes, of both sides, need to be broken down, and that can only be done if they're discussed and diffused. two, black people, and other minorities, need not give whites reasons to continue to believe the stereotypes they do. they also need to respect themselves enough to want to chill with the ignorant violence, pants hanging off their ass, let's see how quick i can score an escalade with big wheels on it, i'm lucky if i survive 'till i'm 20 attitude. obviously, those are huge generalizations, but there is a huge amount of young, black males who follow this crap like it's the only thing they know.
unfortunately, a lot of this knowledge has to be taught by these kids' parents, not the ghetto, TV, friends at school, music, etc. sadly enough, there seems to be less and less time in the day left for teaching by parents 'cause of the need to work one's ass off to keep up with the mortgage, cars, kids, college expenses, etc. this crap is cyclical. without a wrench thrown in the cycle, it'll keep repeating itself. very sad.
-1-
__________________
"these haters live for me to lose that's why i'm dyin' to win..."
i agree 100%, which is why i said that we should ignore racism. the more attention we pay to it, the longer it will live on, and the longer we cling on to it as an excuse.
smoke, i appreciate, eventhough i don't really understand, your willingness to "ignore" this, but do you think it would have done the guy in NY who was reaching for his wallet any good to ignore it while he had four clips worth of bullets emptied at him? ignore it all you want, but it won't ignore you. all it takes is being in the wrong place at the wrong time, a cop seriously harrassing you for what you are, and you seriously paying for it. i can't say that i've experienced this, but i'm not blind to it. it's real. good luck, and if you ever drive I10 cross country, don't get off of it, and wait until you get to houston before you stay the night at a hotel.
bueno suerte.
__________________
"these haters live for me to lose that's why i'm dyin' to win..."
once again, i will tell you like i did the past time, it really makes little difference to me who runs the nation and who doesnt. once again, i will make referrence to our neighboring latin american nations down south, are you the least bit aware of the governments that exists in latin america? the corruption, lies, conspiracies and bringing down of the common people in order to maintain the aristrocrats? now explain to me why exactly would i want the same situation to be held here in the United States? if it's not broken, then why fix it? sure, i am fully aware that many people would love to see a black president, or at least a hispanic senator. But I am not going to sit here and argue why I feel that we must have black or hispanic governmental officials. 
