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**Gardiner** · 08-08-2003, 08:39 AM

As a former LEO I would have to advise you against a fake ID. It is not worth the risk if you just want to drink alcohol.

2003.5 G35 A5 Sedan | 2003 Z06 Corvette | 2003 S10 Extended cab | 1991 Honda CRXsi

Semi On · 08-08-2003, 12:38 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">All joking aside, there is a very serious side to this topic. I'm not here to argue whether or not an 18 year old should be able to drink, but rather to discuss the potential consequences of those actions. The number of drunk driving related deaths in this country is far too high, and I gotta believe the percentage of those attributed to underage drinking is fairly significant. I remember what it was like being 18. I felt invincible, but it's that kind of mindset that can potentially lead to serious danger. Call me a boyscout if you want, but anyone who thinks drinking and driving is a good idea is a total idiot. I'm not suggesting anyone here is going to be irresponsible, but it's a serious problem that I think needs addressing in this topic. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's a valid point. In actuality, that's the very reason for the current drinking age. By increasing it to 21 from 18, the number of drunk driving accidents saw a signficant improvement. However, that's to be expected when you remove a big chunk of people from the bars, regardless of age. You would see the same thing if you increased it to 25 or 30. Does that make it justifiable to impinge on the rights of adults? The reason they chose that particular age is because below that age no one votes so the poitcal back lash was minimal.

I'll try to look up specifically where it was, but there was actually a thread recently on Ars asking what would be a solution to the current drunk driving dillema. I, of course, suggested that rather than even stricter legislation which hasn't proven to be terribly effective so far, the .gov simply needs to invest in some mass transit. Phoenix is one of the worst places in the country for drunk driving (Arizona, Florida and California pretty much own the top 10 cities as far as DD accidents). We also have the worst mass transit system. The end result is that people would rather risk it than wait an hour to spend $50 to get home by taxi.

Someone in the thread mentioned a specific city, and this is what I need to track down, that finally broke down and kept the busses running until 3am. The result was a 68% drop in drunk driving.

With that in mind, is screwing over adults for the actions of some a worthwhile solution in the light of far better options? I tend to think no.

1CRAZMOFO · 08-08-2003, 01:26 PM

The problem with 18 as the age is that they are still KIDS...Many 18 year-olds are very immature, irresponsible and reckless WITHOUT ALCOHOL!!! Not to say that 21 yro are often much better, but those 3 yrs make a BIG difference in maturity... IMO...If you had a 17 yro daughter, who had an 18 yro boyfriend, would you want her riding around in his car, KNOWING he has free access to alcohol??

Not to say that the drinking age stops kids if they really want to drink...Where there's a will there's a way!! But I think they got it right with 21 being the age...

**kloh** · 08-08-2003, 01:29 PM

A good public transportation system would certainly help out. It's horrible here in L.A. so no one uses it. Back when I was in college there was a program where one could call for a ride. It was completely staffed by other students and it worked out pretty well. I'm sure several universities have similar programs, and I imagine a version of this type of thing could be implemented for the general public, though admittedly, it would be very expensive.

The key though, is not only giving people options, but making sure they use them. Even with the best programs available, if some idiot thinks he's okay and can manage to get himself home, it's not going to help. And those in an inebriated state are much less likely to be able to determine that for themselves. They would have to rely on their friends, and guess what, a lot of their friends could be drunk off their ass as well.

My main point here is responsibility and accountability. I for one, was not nearly as mature at 18 than I was at 21. But there plenty of 30-year olds out there who still get behind the wheel when they should know better.

VQ · 08-08-2003, 01:52 PM

Technically, the drinking age in the US is 18. States are the ones that set it to 21 after the Regan administration passed a law (in 1984) that gave more highway funds to states who raised their drinking age. Louisiana was the only state that did not do this. I know that the drinking age in Louisiana was 18, but I believe they changed that to 21 like everyone else in the mid 90's... correct me if I'm wrong.

2003 G35 Coupe | 6-speed | Diamond Graphite/Graphite | Sirius

Semi On · 08-08-2003, 01:53 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The problem with 18 as the age is that they are still KIDS...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

False. Under our laws, they are adults with all the rights of said age with the exception of the ability to drink a beer. If you really believe these people are so immature and not yet ready for adult decisions, why then are you not pushing to have their right to vote, their service in the military and the trial of said "kids" as adults revoked?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Many 18 year-olds are very immature, irresponsible and reckless WITHOUT ALCOHOL!!! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've seen significantly older adults on this forum that lack any semblance of maturity as well. Does that mean they deserve fewer rights than the rest of us?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Not to say that 21 yro are often much better, but those 3 yrs make a BIG difference in maturity... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As do the three years after 21. And the three years after that. And the three years after that...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you had a 17 yro daughter, who had an 18 yro boyfriend, would you want her riding around in his car, KNOWING he has free access to alcohol??
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your inability to raise your child with the capability of making rational and intelligent choices in no way means legally responsible adults have should fewer rights than the rest of us.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I've got an issue that really leaves you scratching your head...How the hell has it become EASIER for an ILLEGAL ALIEN to sneak into the country than it is for the average unemployed American TO FIND A JOB?? I'm really sick and tired of paying ASTRONOMICAL insurance costs and taxes, while people who are here illegally, pay little or no taxes, have no education or skills, AND CAN'T EVEN SPEAK OR BOTHER LEARNING ENGLISH, are having 6 or 7 KIDS???<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How many people do you know that really want to pick cabage or grapes for a buck a day?

Any cost to your insurance via their injury is easily compensated for by the net decrease to prices that cheap labor offers.

The rest of your rant is little more then xenophobism.

Semi On · 08-08-2003, 01:55 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Technically, the drinking age in the US is 18. States are the ones that set it to 21 after the Regan administration passed a law (in 1984) that gave more highway funds to states who raised their drinking age. Louisiana was the only state that did not do this. I know that the drinking age in Louisiana was 18, but I believe they changed that to 21 like everyone else in the mid 90's... correct me if I'm wrong.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I believe you have that correct.

VQ · 08-08-2003, 02:00 PM

Actually, I just did some quick google groups searching (great resource, by the way: http://groups.google.com/ ) to make sure that was the case and it is. But on top of that, I found that the feds withold money from states that don't raise the limit... isn't that blackmail?!?!?!

It's one thing to reward states that participate, but to withold money that they require is flat out wrong!

2003 G35 Coupe | 6-speed | Diamond Graphite/Graphite | Sirius

**kloh** · 08-08-2003, 02:11 PM

That is pretty weak, VQ. Good find.

Semi On · 08-08-2003, 02:12 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It's one thing to reward states that participate, but to withold money that they require is flat out wrong!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To my understanding, THIS is actually why Lousiana finally went along with it. They were cool with passing up money but when the .gov started taking it away, they gave in.

struan87 · 08-08-2003, 02:14 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by VQ
But on top of that, I found that the feds withold money from states that don't raise the limit... isn't that blackmail?!?!?!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not really. It's their money. It's a good way to put pressure on states...they can't legally force states to pass laws, but money talks. If the states (by which I mean the citizens) decide they need the money, they'll pass the law.

I'm not saying it's fair, but it makes sense.

2003 Sedan 6MT | Sport/Aero/Premium | Desert Platinum/Willow | Fuzzy dice

**kloh** · 08-08-2003, 02:23 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Semi On

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Not to say that 21 yro are often much better, but those 3 yrs make a BIG difference in maturity... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As do the three years after 21. And the three years after that. And the three years after that...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Both of you make valid points but I tend to agree with what mofo is saying here. The change in maturity between 18 to 21 in general is a bit more significant than those between 21 to 24 and so on. Note, I said in general. There are always exceptions. But in general, an 18 year old is out of the house, on his/her own for the first time in his/her life. During those three years, an idividual grows a lot and really starts to form their own opinions based on their personal experiences as a "free" adult, absent of the ever-present influence of their parents (of course, good parenting usually sticks with you and helps guide you through those years regardless of whether or not your parents are actually there). Again, not saying "kids" can't form opinions and think for themselves before they reach the age of 18, but I agree that significant amount of personal development takes place during those years.

VQ · 08-08-2003, 02:27 PM

Well, depends on how you look at it. If your employer pays you $10.00 per hour, then one days says, "you know what, we want you to do this, and if you don't we're only going to pay you $5.00 an hour" then that's not right.

The states need and depend on that cash, so they had little choice in the matter. Granted, I have NO idea what kind of numbers we're talking about here, or even what the "exact" wording of the whole thing is!!! [dunno]

EDIT: actually found this... I'll post a link since it's real long:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ibm.com&rnum=6

Or check here, and scroll down to "158" almost at the bottom:
http://resource.lawlinks.com/Content...itle_23_01.htm

2003 G35 Coupe | 6-speed | Diamond Graphite/Graphite | Sirius

struan87 · 08-08-2003, 02:37 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by VQ

Well, depends on how you look at it. If your employer pays you $10.00 per hour, then one days says, "you know what, we want you to do this, and if you don't we're only going to pay you $5.00 an hour" then that's not right.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You're right, it's not "right" in a "nice thing to do" sense. But you can't really complain about their ability to do it. They have money to pay for what they want, same as we do. If I have a cellphone from Sprint, and they charge me $49.99/mo for some plan, but Cingular has the same plan for $5 less, I'll call up Sprint and say "Charge me $45 or I'm gone". Sure, it's not nice, but it's my money. I'll take it elsewhere if I want.

2003 Sedan 6MT | Sport/Aero/Premium | Desert Platinum/Willow | Fuzzy dice

1CRAZMOFO · 08-08-2003, 04:16 PM

Semi, Semi, Semi... You LOVE pissing people off, don't you??

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Your inability to raise your child with the capability of making rational and intelligent choices in no way means legally responsible adults have should fewer rights than the rest of us.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are you [censored] kidding me with that line?? 17 may be considered a child and 18 an adult... TECHNICALLY... But COMMON [censored] SENSE would tell you otherwise!!! Do you think states made the min. age 21, for KICKS??....AH...NO!!!!! I don't have a 17 yro daughter so I know you ain't talking to me...But your idealistic bullshit about PROPERLY RAISED TEENS making "rational and intelligent" choices is just that...

Xenophobism?? Give me a [censored] break!!! My PARENTS came here on a boat from Europe (Spain!) in the 1950's...LEGALLY!!! My parents were LEGAL immigrants!!! But you know what?? THEY MADE SURE, I learned to speak PROPER english, get an EDUCATION, and be a good citizen!!! That, HARD WORK is the way to achieve things and that EDUCATION is the key to success... Sorry, but I don't see that with many of TODAY'S immigrants...THEY'RE HERE ILLEGALLY AND REFUSE TO LEARN ENGLISH!!!

Why is THAT suddenly OK??? Because they're willing to pick grapes??