What is any president directly responsible for? I b*tch about Bush all the time, but believe me, without a compliant congress he wouldn't have gotten away with half the crap he's pulled. Clinton, on the other hand, had a Republican-controlled House fighting against him for 6 of his 8 years in office. In spite of this, we had an increase of 2 million jobs per year during his eight years, (Bush has had an increase of 2 million jobs total so far in his reign); he left office with a net budget surplus, (Bush has put us further in debt by about 2 trillion dollars); we had the respect and cooperation of most of the rest of the planet, and we were envied and emulated by peoples around the world. Now I can't go to Canada without a Kevlar jacket on. In fact, lying while oversees and telling people that you're a Canadian is probably a good survival technique.
But that little blurb above means nothing to me personally even though I believe it is true. That is just to satisfy Irish and Navy who I do respect for having finely tuned military minds but it doesn't go all the way in impressing me as it will only take you so far in life and in death my friends. Still, I'll start another worthless thread in here. I'd prefer to hear a little bit about the soul. For example here is a bit of my soul - I am not afraid to leave the facts behind and be honest even though I know you both carry guns I am not afaid of you. So here it is...I dated a man who had a 50/50 chance of having the worst neurological disease known to man, it was so frightful I had to change the sheets at night because he wet them. That sucked to be me. He was a true MAN and could please me in bed and be a free thinker on this planet, we disagreed about many things you see but stuck together a bit and all... He may one day wake up and not be able to play the most hauntingly beautiful guitar pieces every bit as good as Segovia but instead be a blob of living death before his time. It makes me sad for my old boyfriend (I don't hate people I have stopped fucking) that I used to live in a country where scientists and elite thinkers in America were dominant and that we were the leader nation of this entire world as far as EVERYTHING mental and power and love and brotherhood went. You have to be Korean to be able to discover anything now. It kills me. It destroys the soul of a loving person who thinks about how many billions of years the sun has left to go around the earth.
Susan, I love ya' to pieces, but I gotta step in and say something.
1) How much of the goods and bads you listed for Clinton and Bush can they as presidents claim responsibility for? As i stated in the other thread, Clinton was president at a time when the economy took an upswing completely inedependently of anything he or his administration did. Bush, on the other hand, had two wars and one of the worst natural disasters in the nation's history (not to mention the worst natural disaster in recorded history of mankind to which we were the primary contributor of money, manpower, and resources) happen during his presidency. Whether or not you agree with the wars, they cost lots of money.
2) You're not the first person in this forum to say that the rest of the world hates us now. How many of you have been to any foreign countries to experience first-hand what the rest of the world thinks? Since 9/11, I personally have been to Canada, Greece, Italy, U.A.E., Japan, and Korea. To be honest, I come across a higher percentage of Americans who are critical of our policies than I did in the other countries. Pretty much everyone I came across treated me with respect and generosity. I'd love to hear what irish has to say about this seeing as she has visited 35-40 countries and has lived in 4-5 including some that are "hateful of America". She'd be a great person to ask.
3) I appreciate the compliment about our military minds, but that only slightly colors my political views. It's actually funny that irish and I are being paired in this way because our political views are very different. And I'm almost a little insulted at the implication that our military service is the sum total of our identity. I'd like to think I know a little more about life, death, love, friendship, etc. that what I learned in the military and am a little more in touch with that than most people. I think the misinterpretation comes from the fact that, when it comes to politics, I am admittedly very pragmatic and am much more motivated by intellect than emotion. But this doesn't mean that I'm not in touch with emotion.
It was under Clinton’s watch that the majority of the 9/11 planning was done. Our response (would you not have had a response?) has indeed cost us dearly in lives and money, but those costs pale in comparison to a non-response. We have indeed stopped or slowed Al Qaeda’s ability to plan and launch additional attacks. It’s been over 4 years now with repeated claims by UBL and Al Qaeda that attacks are coming, but they haven’t.
As for Iraq, it was not only the US that had intelligence of WMD, but other allies as well. Yes, we led the effort to overthrow a regime that had a long history of terrorizing its own citizens and, in fact, was responsible for the horrific deaths of hundreds of thousands of Kurds. I only have two complaints of our handling of Iraq… first, that we didn’t finish the job in 1991 and two, that we sided with Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war. But that had more to do with the Soviets supporting Iran than our support of Iraq.
As for disowning our country when traveling, keep in mind the freedoms that we continue to enjoy here when compared to other “free” countries…
Lovechild, I applaud your willingness to discuss and I’m really glad we do live in a country where we have such freedom. Don’t give up on it yet. The country is bigger than Clinton, Bush, or any other single man or administration. I agree with Navy as I travel internationally too. I have found a wide variety of opinions out there, but that includes a great many US and even Bush supporters. And no, I don’t travel to Saudi Arabia…
Alright you want substantiated arguments… You got it
Other than all the good (and obvious) points that LC has made, my arguments are not based on statistics or numbers, but rather my own personal experience.
Let me first start by saying that the reasons I did not initially wish to share my arguments about why Clinton is one of the best presidents in this nation’s history is because:
1.They are personal and would involve talking about my background
2.I am not sure that everyone on this forum is open minded enough, and I do not wish to be subjected to any ethnic comments
3.I did not appreciate the way I was being personally attacked by two individuals in the other thread.
Having said that, I am posting this now only because L.C whose intellect I respect very much has joined the debate. I am only doing this to back her claim that we are now hated around the world. I will not engage in any further profanity. I will just say what I have to say at this point.
I am a Christian from Egypt. I was born and raised in Cairo and moved to the U.S when I was 21 years old. Needless to say that I have a lot of friends back home and that I am very much submersed in the politics of the Middle East. Some members of my family as well as some friends of ours are actual religious refugees in this country and have moved here in recent years.
I come from an elite family in Egypt, went to the best private schools there, and was a part of the “crème de la crème” society there. When I talk about views in the Middle East, I am not talking about illiterate starving people who are easily brainwashed; I am talking about the views of the elite educated society. When Clinton was in power, everyone had a great respect and admiration for the U.S; we believed that the U.S actually had a chance in successfully mediating peace talks between Israel and Palestine. We saw Clinton as a balanced well spoken educated man who represented the U.S with dignity.
Then came Bush, then came the arrogance, then came the war on Iraq, and guess what... all that respect and tolerance that we had was gone… Very quickly replaced by hatred.
When the elite society in those Muslim countries and the media turn against you, you no longer have that balance, that voice of reason... Instead Bush’s actions and arrogance was pushing the media, and moderates in these countries to be more extremist and intolerant.
And then you wonder why there are so many more terror attacks around the world every day… Personally, having lived in Egypt all my life until that point, having had many Muslim friends, and never having felt religious discrimination... That had all changed; my family and many of our friends had to leave… The religious divide is being felt in the Middle East for the first time... Bush’s policies had succeeded in not only dividing US citizens along party lines to the point where Democrats and Republicans hate each other, but he also succeeded in creating religious divides and bringing back religious violence than never existed in countries like Egypt..
Maybe now you understand why Bush and the Americans are hated around the world.
It is not too late, I say we can fix what was broken, but only moderate Democrats can get the job done at this point.
Thank you…
__________________
Rami
2004 6 speed MT Coupe DG/Willow/Premium/XM
Pedals / Clear Corners / Z tube / k&N Air Filter
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I think Navy covered the substantial bit of that perfectly- Economic growth is not a great measure of a president's efficacy. To get a true gauge on this, you would have to look at the policies he push and thier measured effects, which we are still about 15 years from getting anything other than conjecture on.
The thing I have real issue with here though it the idea that the world is somehow dangerous for americans. It is downright dangerous to think this way - it keeps people from really experiencing the world, and encourages us to tolerate reactionary fear mongering in a way we never normally would. Americans have such a small sense of thier place in the world becuase experiencing it is not institutionalized.
Look, I put it this way. We suck at accurately measuring risk. You may be 100 time more likely to be killed because you are western in Indonesia than in Ohio. But if that risk is 1 in 10,000,000 in Ohio, that means its only 1 in 100,000 in Indonesia. This is still not a significant risk.
I have been all over Indonesia for months at time, in the weeks and months following the Bali bombing; I have crawled across borders in Laos, illegally entered Nepal at the height of maoist violence, never once pretended to be Candian, and by far the most statistically dangerous thing I have ever done is DRIVE MY CAR TO WORK THIS MORNING.
Pretending to be canadian is not only unnecessary, but harmful. Most of the world doesn't hate us as people (they are rational intelligent beings who can separate thier feelings about a government from individuals of that nationality), but they do think we are pretty ignorant and self absorbed. So if all the americans out there who do travel pretend to be something else out of ignorant fear, they take away the chance for a foreigner to meet and american who IS interested in the world around them.
Emotion is a beautiful thing when dealing with individuals, but should not supercede fact when dealing with information. I have only been in the military a short time and have had considerable civilian expierence long before I was in. In fact all the time I have lived abroad, traveled, etc was BEFORE I was in the military, living and working. This is how I see the world LC, don't kid yourself. Emotion has its place in human relationships, but not in policy making.. or at least it shouldn't dominate.
I think Navy covered the substantial bit of that perfectly- Economic growth is not a great measure of a president's efficacy. To get a true gauge on this, you would have to look at the policies he push and thier measured effects, which we are still about 15 years from getting anything other than conjecture on.
The thing I have real issue with here though it the idea that the world is somehow dangerous for americans. It is downright dangerous to think this way - it keeps people from really experiencing the world, and encourages us to tolerate reactionary fear mongering in a way we never normally would. Americans have such a small sense of thier place in the world becuase experiencing it is not institutionalized.
Look, I put it this way. We suck at accurately measuring risk. You may be 100 time more likely to be killed because you are western in Indonesia than in Ohio. But if that risk is 1 in 10,000,000 in Ohio, that means its only 1 in 100,000 in Indonesia. This is still not a significant risk.
I have been all over Indonesia for months at time, in the weeks and months following the Bali bombing; I have crawled across borders in Laos, illegally entered Nepal at the height of maoist violence, never once pretended to be Candian, and by far the most statistically dangerous thing I have ever done is DRIVE MY CAR TO WORK THIS MORNING.
Pretending to be canadian is not only unnecessary, but harmful. Most of the world doesn't hate us as people (they are rational intelligent beings who can separate thier feelings about a government from individuals of that nationality), but they do think we are pretty ignorant and self absorbed. So if all the americans out there who do travel pretend to be something else out of ignorant fear, they take away the chance for a foreigner to meet and american who IS interested in the world around them.
Emotion is a beautiful thing when dealing with individuals, but should not supercede fact when dealing with information. I have only been in the military a short time and have had considerable civilian expierence long before I was in. In fact all the time I have lived abroad, traveled, etc was BEFORE I was in the military, living and working. This is how I see the world LC, don't kid yourself. Emotion has its place in human relationships, but not in policy making.. or at least it shouldn't dominate.
Alright you want substantiated arguments… You got it
Other than all the good (and obvious) points that LC has made, my arguments are not based on statistics or numbers, but rather my own personal experience.
Let me first start by saying that the reasons I did not initially wish to share my arguments about why Clinton is one of the best presidents in this nation’s history is because:
1.They are personal and would involve talking about my background
2.I am not sure that everyone on this forum is open minded enough, and I do not wish to be subjected to any ethnic comments
3.I did not appreciate the way I was being personally attacked by two individuals in the other thread.
Having said that, I am posting this now only because L.C whose intellect I respect very much has joined the debate. I am only doing this to back her claim that we are now hated around the world. I will not engage in any further profanity. I will just say what I have to say at this point.
I am a Christian from Egypt. I was born and raised in Cairo and moved to the U.S when I was 21 years old. Needless to say that I have a lot of friends back home and that I am very much submersed in the politics of the Middle East. Some members of my family as well as some friends of ours are actual religious refugees in this country and have moved here in recent years.
I come from an elite family in Egypt, went to the best private schools there, and was a part of the “crème de la crème” society there. When I talk about views in the Middle East, I am not talking about illiterate starving people who are easily brainwashed; I am talking about the views of the elite educated society. When Clinton was in power, everyone had a great respect and admiration for the U.S; we believed that the U.S actually had a chance in successfully mediating peace talks between Israel and Palestine. We saw Clinton as a balanced well spoken educated man who represented the U.S with dignity.
Then came Bush, then came the arrogance, then came the war on Iraq, and guess what... all that respect and tolerance that we had was gone… Very quickly replaced by hatred.
When the elite society in those Muslim countries and the media turn against you, you no longer have that balance, that voice of reason... Instead Bush’s actions and arrogance was pushing the media, and moderates in these countries to be more extremist and intolerant.
And then you wonder why there are so many more terror attacks around the world every day… Personally, having lived in Egypt all my life until that point, having had many Muslim friends, and never having felt religious discrimination... That had all changed; my family and many of our friends had to leave… The religious divide is being felt in the Middle East for the first time... Bush’s policies had succeeded in not only dividing US citizens along party lines to the point where Democrats and Republicans hate each other, but he also succeeded in creating religious divides and bringing back religious violence than never existed in countries like Egypt..
Maybe now you understand why Bush and the Americans are hated around the world.
It is not too late, I say we can fix what was broken, but only moderate Democrats can get the job done at this point.
Thank you…
Okay, this I can understand and it explains a lot of what you've been saying. I'm not even going to try to argue this because it's too deeply rooted in personal experience and your perspective is clearly vastly different than mine.
I will say that the hatred between Republicans and Democrats goes back to the origins of each party and connot be blamed on Bush or Clinton or any president for that matter. There has always been a deep rift between the two major parties in power and probably always will be. On a certain level, this dichotomy is necessary and healthy for a strong democracy and is fundamental to the checks and balances inherent in the system. You need people on both sides of the issue to find the balance. But there's just enough irrational idealist in me that wishes they could be more reasonable about it. The rest of me knows better. I will agree that it will take moderates to bring reason, regardless of their political affiliation.
My degree is in Economics and so you are correct Irish I would perhaps mistakenly consider it to be ONE fairly decent measure of how a president has effected my life and those of my fellow Americans.
I am sorry but I was lead to believe from the only clear statements I have heard from this president...The conservative strategy on the economy is as follows...
Slash taxes (as aggressively as I drive) for the rich folk of our country because they have dreamed up the illogical idea that it will stimulate job creation and wage growth.
Run up our beautiful flagpole huge budget deficits on the premise that the American Public is too dumb to give a fuck. Spending can be done through taxation or loans - glad to know that China (a COMMUNIST Dog Eating country if you have forgotten) is my new master for the next X years.
Massive cuts in domestic spending to shrink the overall size of government. I can't even go here - too long for my busy day.
$2 trillion plan to privatize Social Security - oh just fuck me up the ass before my new bf ever gets the chance.
But I deviate...my main wish to know your minds better is based on your individual response and emotion to the past few presidents. I never said we should use emotion to determine policy. And I think Hillary is a cunt personally and yet I might be able to ignore that emotion and vote for her - undecided. Here is me again. If he drools and speaks like an idiot, thinks he is the prophet of God and goes on religious crusades rather than hunting down true terrorists and stringing them up by the nuts, can't balance a budget, takes away personal freedoms it is bound to have an impact on the country and the rest of the world, it is not looking good in my mind for the human race as a whole.
I really was asking for the effect of the last few presidency's on your spirit, not a bunch of stats. I am well aware of the stats, again I had to learn all of those tricks of risk decades ago and I can't be impressed by false titles as I've lived behind the scenes of social science bs at times. Thank you for answering at all though but I wish to continue to clarify our positions. I will stop back in later this weekend with a few more thought for example the joy I felt on the day that Ronald R. was shot. I was a young child but even then those fear tactic political commercials had such impact on my fellow classmates (kids are sooo impressionable) I could narry sway them from believing we would all die in a nuclear holocaust. They didn't read Keynes, they didn't read Marx. They didn't even read Orwell. I am talking about your personal experience why you are invested in your political beliefs.
for example the joy I felt on the day that Ronald R. was shot.
Sorry, you just lost me. I can't take seriously the radicalism of someone who would express joy at ANY President being shot. So much for the "lovechild" mantra. Doesn't this show hate in its purest sense?
I had just read testimonial from Native American women suggesting that the administration had forcefully steralized 1/4 of the population which to me was akin to genocide. I hated Bush Sr. and Ronny. I know, pre teenage girls should have been reading Sweet Valley High instead.
My screen name has nothing to do with your interpretation but rather another story entirely. Sorry if you feel I've misrepresented myself in some way by choosing it.
"I never said I was innocent. I will burn in hell for the things I've done to you." - Everclear
My degree is in Economics and so you are correct Irish I would perhaps mistakenly consider it to be ONE fairly decent measure of how a president has effected my life and those of my fellow Americans.
I am sorry but I was lead to believe from the only clear statements I have heard from this president...The conservative strategy on the economy is as follows...
Slash taxes (as aggressively as I drive) for the rich folk of our country because they have dreamed up the illogical idea that it will stimulate job creation and wage growth.
Run up our beautiful flagpole huge budget deficits on the premise that the American Public is too dumb to give a fuck. Spending can be done through taxation or loans - glad to know that China (a COMMUNIST Dog Eating country if you have forgotten) is my new master for the next X years.
Massive cuts in domestic spending to shrink the overall size of government. I can't even go here - too long for my busy day.
$2 trillion plan to privatize Social Security - oh just fuck me up the ass before my new bf ever gets the chance.
But I deviate...my main wish to know your minds better is based on your individual response and emotion to the past few presidents. I never said we should use emotion to determine policy. And I think Hillary is a cunt personally and yet I might be able to ignore that emotion and vote for her - undecided. Here is me again. If he drools and speaks like an idiot, thinks he is the prophet of God and goes on religious crusades rather than hunting down true terrorists and stringing them up by the nuts, can't balance a budget, takes away personal freedoms it is bound to have an impact on the country and the rest of the world, it is not looking good in my mind for the human race as a whole.
I really was asking for the effect of the last few presidency's on your spirit, not a bunch of stats. I am well aware of the stats, again I had to learn all of those tricks of risk decades ago and I can't be impressed by false titles as I've lived behind the scenes of social science bs at times. Thank you for answering at all though but I wish to continue to clarify our positions. I will stop back in later this weekend with a few more thought for example the joy I felt on the day that Ronald R. was shot. I was a young child but even then those fear tactic political commercials had such impact on my fellow classmates (kids are sooo impressionable) I could narry sway them from believing we would all die in a nuclear holocaust. They didn't read Keynes, they didn't read Marx. They didn't even read Orwell. I am talking about your personal experience why you are invested in your political beliefs.
My investiture in politics is not personal- it is the result of a calculated look at the world around me, and a genuine desire to understand what needs to be done... I just don't connect personal emotion to abstract political policy. It is the people in my life, and the experiences I have had that have something to do with personal emotional construct. Talking about individual experiences, although interesting perhaps (when they are expressed coherently that is), is not really a great way to come to terms with an overall evaluation of the efficacy of a given administration. I guess I am just more interested in the bigger picture, not the personal. Narrative accounts only serve to distort the logic of a larger argument becuase the necessarily bring focus on one aspect of it at the cost of other facets of the debate.
But I get what you are saying- you want personal accounts of how presidents have affected individuals. To be totally honest, I just don't think this way.. and I think there are loads others out there who just don't personalize the abstract so much, or at least value that personalization. Private life is private.
And, FYI, on the economic front, well...thats a whole other post, but I am NOT a fan of modern conservative economics...
Sorry, but this just isn't as interesting of a question to me.....
Okay, let's look at how the democrats think we should spend our money:
Drive taxes through the roof for everyone to increase the size of government and use legislation and government as the panacea for all of our social ills. Problem in the country? Throw a bunch of legislation and tax money at it to create a bloated, bureacratic, wasteful government plan that will, at best, slap a band-aid on it. All of this on the premise that a handful of Americans are too dumb to know how to take care of themselves, therefore every American must pay out the ass for it.
As for my personal experience with the last and current presidents, there are elements that are colored by my job. For example, Clinton was responsible for the some of the largest military spending cuts in history. That's a purely academic debate until you consider the fact that a large percentage of those cuts came in the way of military pay resulting in a very large percentage of the junior enlisted troops living below the poverty line. Let me clarify that: Thousands and thousands of military service members living on food stamps. These men and women volunteered to fight and die for their country but aren't even paid enough to feed their families. That is shameful.
There is also the fact that I feel the Clinton administration is largely to blame for the rise of Al Qaeda and the terrorist movement. We were attacked by terrorism years before Bush was even a candidate: The first attack on the World Trade Center, the USS Cole, two US embassies, etc. All of which were soveriegn US territories as if they were in the middle of Nebraska. What was the Clinton response? Nothing. There was no response. Attack after attack and we did nothing. How could this not embolden the terrorists to make an even bolder attack? Plus, if you want to talk about bad intelligence and decision making, the Clinton new about UBL and where he was and the threat he presented and did nothing. Bad data on WMDs? Clinton destroyed the largest pharmaceutical factory in sub-saharan Africa based on a shred of evidence that it was a WMD plant, ignoring a mountain of evidence that it wasn't. It was also conveniently timed so that it happened the day after the Lewinsky scandal broke. So Bush is the only one motivated for self-serving reasons? So to say that the current administration is to blame for the terrorists gaining power is to neglect Clinton's role.
I will emphatically echo your concerns with the personal freedoms being at risk and I hate that he is so in lock-step with the religious right's agenda. That is extremely dangerous to our freedoms. I am disgusted with the way the religious right feels entitled to force their morals on every American. This absolutely needs to stop. It's unamerican.
Run up our beautiful flagpole huge budget deficits on the premise that the American Public is too dumb to give a fuck. Spending can be done through taxation or loans - glad to know that China (a COMMUNIST Dog Eating country if you have forgotten) is my new master for the next X years.
I would respond to this, except its not even coherent!? What are you arguing here?
I would respond to this, except its not even coherent!? What are you arguing here?
Sorry I am doing five difficult things at work, planning an evening with a 3 and 5 year old, trying to decipher results to see if someone gave me an STD (oh no) all at once and in here I was trying to make a sarcastic point about who owns this country and how typically conservatives freak out about communism and the owner of our debt is China. It fell flat, sorry but it was supposed to show hypocrisy in conservative bedfellowship.
Clinton V. Bush
