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View Poll Results: Do you approve of Bush and his cabinet?
Yes 14 43.75%
No 16 50.00%
Don't give a flying fook! 2 6.25%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-25-2006, 06:39 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeG305
you're a member, so i dont know why you're saying such a thing
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Old 01-25-2006, 06:42 PM   #92 (permalink)
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not really. my opinions on fiscal policy are quite conservative. with sociological issues, i could go either way depending on what stance each party chooses. i believe i read a post earlier that said something about republicans and democrats being very much alike. i completely agree with them. i don't really know much about gangs, but the crips and the bloods are pretty much the same thing, right? one is red, and one is blue. in our goverment's case, one is an elephant and one is a donkey. animals.
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Old 01-31-2006, 02:55 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dholly
- Don't have a clue how I would have reacted in the same circumstances, but I do find it interesting that those who criticize Bush's reaction to the 9/11 news 1.) do not offer any suggestion about what the President should have done during those seven minutes, rather than staying calm for the sake of the classroom and of the public; 2.) nor do they point to any way that the 9/11 events might have turned out better in even the slightest way if the President had acted differently. What would you have him to do, dash out to the nearest telephone booth and swap into his Superman tights? Lee Hamilton, the Vice-Chair of the 9/11 Commission and a former Democratic Representative from Indiana: "Bush made the right decision in remaining calm, in not rushing out of the classroom." Moreover, as detailed by the Washington Times, Ari Fleischer was in the back of the classroom, holding up a legal pad with the words, "DON'T SAY ANYTHING YET." The Secret Service may well have been cautious about moving Bush, not only because of hijackings, but also because on the morning of 9/11, a Middle Eastern man had tried to gain personal access to the President by falsely claiming that he was a journalist with a scheduled interview, and by asking for a Secret Service agent by name.

- General Aviation traffic was suspended. On the morning of 9/11, the FAA suspended all nonemergency air activity in the national airspace. While the national airspace was closed, decisions to allow aircraft to fly were made by the FAA working with the Department of Defense, Department of State, U.S. Secret Service, and the FBI. The only flights allowed were repositioning flights by commercial carriers and LifeFlight organ transplant deliveries. The Department of Transportation reopened the national airspace to U.S. carriers effective 11:00 A.M. on September 13, 2001, for flights (including private charters) out of or into airports that had implemented the FAA's new security requirements.

From the House Subcommittee report on the shutdown:

"On September 13, 2001, FAA, in cooperation with the National Security Council (NSC), began incrementally reopening the NAS to civilian operations, first on a flight-by-flight basis to commercial air carriers and then to other segments of the aviation industry."

See: House Transportation Timeline

Limited airport operations began all over the country on Sept. 13... the first day the Saudis were allowed to fly within the country. On Sept 13, Tampa police brought three young Saudis they were protecting on an off-duty security detail to the airport so they could get on a plane to Lexington. Tampa police arranged for two more private investigators to provide security on the flight. They boarded a chartered Learjet. The plane took off at 4:37 P.M., after national airspace was open, more than five hours after the Tampa airport had reopened, and after other flights had arrived at and departed from that airport. The three Saudi nationals debarked from the plane and were met by local police. Their private security guards were paid. and the police then escorted the three Saudi passengers to a hotel where they joined relatives already in Lexington.

It's an absolute fallacy that the Saudis got some super-special clearance available to no one else either to fly about or out of the U.S. On the 13th, waivers were being given to flights all around the country. The Saudis applied for one, and after it was cleared by Richard Clarke and the FBI, the waiver was granted. So, to be clear here - when the Saudis first flew within the U.S. on Sept. 13, permission was already being granted all around the country for various flights.

Actually, they flew out of the country in the following days. According to this Snopes article, after the airspace reopened, nine chartered flights with 160 people, mostly Saudi nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. In addition, one Saudi government flight, containing the Saudi deputy defense minister and other members of an official Saudi delegation, departed Newark Airport on September 14. Every airport involved in these Saudi flights was open when the flight departed, and no inappropriate actions were taken to allow those flights to depart.

These flights were screened by law enforcement officials, primarily the FBI. For example, one flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin. Screening of this flight was directed by an FBI agent in the Baltimore Field Office who was also a pilot ... The Bin Ladin flight and other flights we examined were screened in accordance with policies set by FBI headquarters and coordinated through working-level interagency processes. Although most of the passengers were not interviewed, 22 of the 26 people on the Bin Ladin flight were interviewed by the FBI. Many were asked detailed questions. None of the passengers stated that they had any recent contact with Usama Bin Ladin or knew anything about terrorist activity.

- If you question the cost or necessity of protecting America, perhaps it is you who should expand their reading material. As starters, may I suggest this link:
AL-QAEDA'S INTELLECTUAL LEGACY:
NEW RADICAL ISLAMIC THINKING
JUSTIFYING THE GENOCIDE OF INFIDELS
Jonathan D. Halevi

So I had some time and went back and read the links you submitted which lead to a bigger search and discussion and I must admit, I bought into this whole rumor full line and sinker, and I was wrong.

Now I don't want you guys to start slingin' mudd at each other because I resurrected this topic, but the point of these cerebral discussions is to get rational people to socratically debate and come up with theories or solutions to achieve further enlightenment. The best case scenario is that you go "hmmm", shutup and go home and think about it and come back with fact to debate some more.

Despite this one incident, I still think that the Bush Administration is playing games with us and has achieved an enormous amount of power that we - as an American public - should be concerned with. But with regards to the Bin Laden flight, I absolutely stand corrected. That said, I will go out and buy Craig Unger's book, House of Bush, House of Saud.
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Old 02-01-2006, 11:52 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Kudos to you. You don't have to be a supporter or detractor to realize there are more negative allegations swirling around this President and administration than just about any other in history. Trying to determine which are legit is like trying to pick the fly shit out of the pepper. My position is simply that even those who disagree with some or all of this admin's policies have an obligation, at the very least to themselves, to make more than a cursury effort to bypass the rumor mill and attempt to uncover some fact.

At any rate, it is certainly no secret that this admin is hell-bent on expanding Executive Branch power and the Legislative Branch wants none of it. But that's nothing new and these two branches of government have butted heads over the exact same 'argument' since the beginning. IMO, the primary issues today are the 'unitary executive theory' (an expansive view of presidential power that calls for greater White House control of government operations and a reduced role for Congress), and use of presidential signing statements (official documents in which a president lays out an interpretation of a new law) to ensure that the president will get in the last word on questions of interpretation.

Since all federal executive power is vested by the Constitution in the president, ie., the buck ultimately stops on the Prez's desk, many feel this theory best captures the meaning of the Constitution's text and structure. Not sure I go that far, but I most assuredly endorse the idea that the federal bureaucracy should be more accountable to the president. The president is, after all, the 'top' official to be elected nationwide. If the federal bureaucracy has ground government to a halt, Prez should have at least some recourse particularly on nat'l security and military matters as Commander-in-Chief.

The people's concern for unitary executive theory when coupled with signing statement as a device for expanding executive power is well founded. However, my total distaste of the primarily self-serving, disfunctional Congressional membership as a whole is strong enough for me to agree risking LIMITED trust on the President to use a narrow expansion of Executive powers to protect the nation. This view is not party specific and would hold true regardless of Prez/Admin political affiliation or Congressional control. Is there a potential for misuse? Of course, but the voting public holds the ultimate defense of an abuse of power, and legislation can always be recinded or modified. YMMV.

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Last edited by dholly : 02-01-2006 at 12:07 PM.
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