Ohh, and I don't miss Ron Regan one bit. Seemed like a real nice guy, but he wasn't all that smart. Just fortunate to be in the right place at the right time. I read about him while he was governor of California. No thanks. Ranks up there with Pete Wilson. As President, he was fortunate to be in the right place at the right time. His talent for oratory is what sets him apart from most Presidents.
C'mon Smoke, we've been through this round after round. It's not a right hook you didn't see coming.
We just let bygones be bygones, but it's still fun to debate one Socratically with the intent that reasonable men will question and still form new questions . . . a continual learning experience.
Ohh, and I don't miss Ron Regan one bit. Seemed like a real nice guy, but he wasn't all that smart. Just fortunate to be in the right place at the right time. I read about him while he was governor of California. No thanks. Ranks up there with Pete Wilson. As President, he was fortunate to be in the right place at the right time. His talent for oratory is what sets him apart from most Presidents.
so what do you consider clinton? the man did jack-squat during his presidency. in fact, in his last year of power, the economy was on a downward slope. if anyone was at the right place at the right time, it was clinton. he was SO DAMN LUCKY none of the 9/11 bs, or hurricanes ocurred during his presidency. he was never faced with a situation that would define him as a "great president". funny, reagan was good at oratory? well what was clinton good at again?
C'mon Smoke, we've been through this round after round. It's not a right hook you didn't see coming.
We just let bygones be bygones, but it's still fun to debate one Socratically with the intent that reasonable men will question and still form new questions . . . a continual learning experience.
ok gamma, i'll just sit patiently and wait for cK to return
so what do you consider clinton? the man did jack-squat during his presidency. in fact, in his last year of power, the economy was on a downward slope. if anyone was at the right place at the right time, it was clinton. he was SO DAMN LUCKY none of the 9/11 bs, or hurricanes ocurred during his presidency. he was never faced with a situation that would define him as a "great president". funny, reagan was good at oratory? well what was clinton good at again?
In his last year of power, Clinton was so maligned with impeachment issues and the cold stare from his wife . . . well is it any wonder they called him the "comeback kid." Had he not been so bogged down, one could speculate what he could of done since his administration knew about Osama Bin Laden.
Bill Clinton had a terrorist act occur after the nuts in Waco, Texas died. Oklahoma City, which up until that day on April 19, 1995 was the worst domestic terrorist attack in US history.
During his tenure as president, his domestic priorities included efforts to create a universal healthcare system (the US public should be ashamed for the current health care system we have), Though initially well-received in political circles, it was ultimately doomed by well-organized opposition from conservatives, doctors and the health insurance industry. He also strengthened environmental regulations, and improved race relations. Clinton was a populist president and no one ever heard anything remotely close to the statement we heard last year, "President Bush does not like Black people." A sentiment that I believe is flawed of course, but popular nevertheless.
His domestic agenda also included other themes such as reforming welfare programs and increasing law enforcement funding. Internationally, his priorities included reducing trade barriers (NAFTA), preventing nuclear proliferation, and mediating the Northern Ireland peace process and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. His work with Itzak Rhabin and Yasir Arafat was momentous.
Probably the biggest reason why people would still vote for him now, is despite occasional political troubles with regards to his "moral character", Clinton also benefitted from a very strong US economy. In 1999, the United States had a projected federal budget surplus for the first time since 1969. While Clinton, Congress and the private sector have all been given credit at different times, this economic success was a source of immense political strength for Clinton. Like Ronnie, Clinton was at the right place at the right time.
ahh...finally some support. i'm not bush hating as much as i'm trying to say that there's been an attempt to place the blame for everything that's gone wrong in his presidency on someone or something else. honestly, i don't blame 9/11 on anyone. that could have happened to any country anywhere. i never said that was bush's fault. as far as the intelligence used to justify our iraq campaign, quit blaming that on others too. are you saying that since the last administration gathered it, that there was no need to check up on it before it was acted upon? it seems as though, from what i'm reading, clinton, at least until it was proven otherwise, did nothing right except for gather this intelligence. you and bush were willing to throw away everything else he did, but damnit, that intelligence that said iraq had wmd was right on.
ck, i believe in just about everything you do when it comes to how i think government should be run. personal accountability and small government are two huge ones for me. those are two traditionally republican ideas. war aside, i generally agree with the fiscal policies of the conservative side of our government. my beef is with particular issues like the war, and there are people on the conservative end of the spectrum in government that completely agree with me. as i said in an earlier post, there are things that i'm behind bush on 100%. you might be surprised that one of those issues is the wire tapping "scandal." maybe it wasn't done by the book, but i believe it's purpose was genuine, and if terrorist threats were foiled because of it, then the ends justified the means.
the debate is appreciated ck, and when dholly says his peace, i'll appreciate that too. this is one of the great aspects of this country. we can have these debates without any consequence aside from hopefully being enlightened to the points of view of the other side. smoke, until you can come up with a decent argument, whether that be for or against what i'm saying, go away. if you disagree with me, fine, but if all you have are weak ass personal insults and a falsely percieved notion that i'm trying to steal some girl from you off of this forum, don't waste your time.
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"i wonder if this grief would ever let me go? i feel like i am the king...king of sorrow."
Domestic policy? How about the Brady bill and assualt weapons ban... I felt soo much safer after that passed. Law abiding citizens could no longer buy new large capacity magazines, flash supressors, etc cause they make a gun more 'dangerous'. Oh and I'm sure criminals also fastidiously abided by these laws also.
Didn't like Clinton as governor, didn't like him as president, and before they were finally taken down permantently (after being shot, vandalized and partly taken down by random people) I felt embarrassed everytime going into Fayetteville when I saw the "first home of Bill and Hillary Clinton" signs.
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Everyone is finally equal. No one is smarter than anyone else. No one is stronger than anyone else. No one is better. Everyone is worse.
Domestic policy? How about the Brady bill and assualt weapons ban... I felt soo much safer after that passed. Law abiding citizens could no longer buy new large capacity magazines, flash supressors, etc cause they make a gun more 'dangerous'. Oh and I'm sure criminals also fastidiously abided by these laws also.
Didn't like Clinton as governor, didn't like him as president, and before they were finally taken down permantently (after being shot, vandalized and partly taken down by random people) I felt embarrassed everytime going into Fayetteville when I saw the "first home of Bill and Hillary Clinton" signs.
The problem with the left and gun control is that they don't know a thing about guns aside from what is shown in the movies and on t.v. I know that most of the gun owners out there are law abiding people. But situations such as Waco, Ruby Ridge, and all the high school shootings by gun toting children don't help pro-gun right advocates either.
There has got to be some sort of middle ground in this issue. I love San Francisco but the gun laws that city has passed is way beyond my tolerance.
Domestic policy? How about the Brady bill and assualt weapons ban... I felt soo much safer after that passed. Law abiding citizens could no longer buy new large capacity magazines, flash supressors, etc cause they make a gun more 'dangerous'. Oh and I'm sure criminals also fastidiously abided by these laws also.
Didn't like Clinton as governor, didn't like him as president, and before they were finally taken down permantently (after being shot, vandalized and partly taken down by random people) I felt embarrassed everytime going into Fayetteville when I saw the "first home of Bill and Hillary Clinton" signs.
you need large capacity magazines and flash supressors as much as you need an f1 car for your everday commute to work. criminals don't abide by any laws, hence the title criminal. i'm not a gun enthusiast, but if that bill saves one of my relatives that's a police officer from being overwhelmed by some clown with an assault rifle 'cause his police issue isn't nearly in the same class as the weapon he's facing, then it's worth it to me. your desire to waste a bunch of ammunition, although justified, is secondary to me.
your dislike for clinton in his respective offices is understandable, and i see nothing wrong with it as long as it's voiced respectfully.
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"i wonder if this grief would ever let me go? i feel like i am the king...king of sorrow."
How was my or any other law abiding citizens being unable to buy new (pre-existing units could still be sold and used) large capacity magazines making anyone safer though? You yourself said that criminals don't abide by the laws. Criminals will always get their hands on the guns they want no matter how many misguided and ill thoughtout laws are passed on the matter. All gun control bills do is make it more difficult and expensive for those of us who follow the law to acquire the items we want.
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Everyone is finally equal. No one is smarter than anyone else. No one is stronger than anyone else. No one is better. Everyone is worse.
...if we don't go to war on bullshit, 2000+ americans won't die. hey smoke, i don't know if you have kids, but if your son was 18, would you want him over there? do you think bush, if he had a son, would send him over there? the worst part of it all is there are kids over there that won't come back, and none of it was really necessary. very few of those kids were driving g35s, graudating from usc, earning great salaries, etc. before they left. 'pretty shitty if you ask me, and i really can't see how you or i are safer today than we were five years ago because of it.
Every single one of the servicemembers is a volunteer. No one killed in any conflict since Vietnam was forced into it. Don't try to make this a class thing.
Every single one of the servicemembers is a volunteer. No one killed in any conflict since Vietnam was forced into it. Don't try to make this a class thing.
take a sociology class at your local community college. it might serve you well. take a census of the guys who are in the military. who makes up the majority of the military's infantry? believe me, they're not a bunch of rich kids. rich kids don't join the military 'cause rich kids don't have to. rich kids don't need the g.i. bill. who went to war in vietnam? who tried to dodge the draft? who joined the coast gaurd to avoid going overseas? it wasn't the "poor" kids. it's true they are volunteers, but you have to ask yourself why someone would volunteer in the first place. it's one thing to defend america's ideologies, but to do so for a cause that's bogus like iraq should make even the most patriotic of our society question going to a foreign country to dodge bullets.
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"i wonder if this grief would ever let me go? i feel like i am the king...king of sorrow."
Currently, this administration has lied to us over and over again. If you say "example," well then you aren't reading enough. The white house is about leadership and about progress. I still remember that look on Bush Jr's face when he was told that the twin towers was hit and he just sait and waited there in the classroom. Hours later, the Bin Laden family, the only people allowed to fly, get on a plane and leave. I wonder who is winning this war on terror and if all the lives and money we are spending in Iraq is worth it.
- Don't have a clue how I would have reacted in the same circumstances, but I do find it interesting that those who criticize Bush's reaction to the 9/11 news 1.) do not offer any suggestion about what the President should have done during those seven minutes, rather than staying calm for the sake of the classroom and of the public; 2.) nor do they point to any way that the 9/11 events might have turned out better in even the slightest way if the President had acted differently. What would you have him to do, dash out to the nearest telephone booth and swap into his Superman tights? Lee Hamilton, the Vice-Chair of the 9/11 Commission and a former Democratic Representative from Indiana: "Bush made the right decision in remaining calm, in not rushing out of the classroom." Moreover, as detailed by the Washington Times, Ari Fleischer was in the back of the classroom, holding up a legal pad with the words, "DON'T SAY ANYTHING YET." The Secret Service may well have been cautious about moving Bush, not only because of hijackings, but also because on the morning of 9/11, a Middle Eastern man had tried to gain personal access to the President by falsely claiming that he was a journalist with a scheduled interview, and by asking for a Secret Service agent by name.
- General Aviation traffic was suspended. On the morning of 9/11, the FAA suspended all nonemergency air activity in the national airspace. While the national airspace was closed, decisions to allow aircraft to fly were made by the FAA working with the Department of Defense, Department of State, U.S. Secret Service, and the FBI. The only flights allowed were repositioning flights by commercial carriers and LifeFlight organ transplant deliveries. The Department of Transportation reopened the national airspace to U.S. carriers effective 11:00 A.M. on September 13, 2001, for flights (including private charters) out of or into airports that had implemented the FAA's new security requirements.
From the House Subcommittee report on the shutdown:
"On September 13, 2001, FAA, in cooperation with the National Security Council (NSC), began incrementally reopening the NAS to civilian operations, first on a flight-by-flight basis to commercial air carriers and then to other segments of the aviation industry."
Limited airport operations began all over the country on Sept. 13... the first day the Saudis were allowed to fly within the country. On Sept 13, Tampa police brought three young Saudis they were protecting on an off-duty security detail to the airport so they could get on a plane to Lexington. Tampa police arranged for two more private investigators to provide security on the flight. They boarded a chartered Learjet. The plane took off at 4:37 P.M., after national airspace was open, more than five hours after the Tampa airport had reopened, and after other flights had arrived at and departed from that airport. The three Saudi nationals debarked from the plane and were met by local police. Their private security guards were paid. and the police then escorted the three Saudi passengers to a hotel where they joined relatives already in Lexington.
It's an absolute fallacy that the Saudis got some super-special clearance available to no one else either to fly about or out of the U.S. On the 13th, waivers were being given to flights all around the country. The Saudis applied for one, and after it was cleared by Richard Clarke and the FBI, the waiver was granted. So, to be clear here - when the Saudis first flew within the U.S. on Sept. 13, permission was already being granted all around the country for various flights.
Actually, they flew out of the country in the following days. According to this Snopes article, after the airspace reopened, nine chartered flights with 160 people, mostly Saudi nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. In addition, one Saudi government flight, containing the Saudi deputy defense minister and other members of an official Saudi delegation, departed Newark Airport on September 14. Every airport involved in these Saudi flights was open when the flight departed, and no inappropriate actions were taken to allow those flights to depart.
These flights were screened by law enforcement officials, primarily the FBI. For example, one flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin. Screening of this flight was directed by an FBI agent in the Baltimore Field Office who was also a pilot ... The Bin Ladin flight and other flights we examined were screened in accordance with policies set by FBI headquarters and coordinated through working-level interagency processes. Although most of the passengers were not interviewed, 22 of the 26 people on the Bin Ladin flight were interviewed by the FBI. Many were asked detailed questions. None of the passengers stated that they had any recent contact with Usama Bin Ladin or knew anything about terrorist activity.
- If you question the cost or necessity of protecting America, perhaps it is you who should expand their reading material. As starters, may I suggest this link:
