We probably don't have enough storage area but the Okeechobee Waterway Canal was full up over the docks and the drainge pipe from the outfall in our pond was underwater. I walked the dogs early in the morning and the canal was a foot or so below normal. The rain was just overwhelming. It was a cell that just sat on us for 12 hours. 30 miles to the north or south was sunny. It was the freakiest thing.
__________________
I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country; the least encroachment on those invaluable privileges makes my blood boil. Benjamin Franklin
Actually with proper drainage canals and grading of the site, much of that could have been avoided. I know it's not obvious to your untrained eye, but it'd better be something you think about when you buy property Smoke.
__________________
Now I'm just laid bad - G35Princess
R.I.P. MBC
Actually with proper drainage canals and grading of the site, much of that could have been avoided. I know it's not obvious to your untrained eye, but it'd better be something you think about when you buy property Smoke.
It's tough down here because everything is so flat. Most of your drainage pipes have a zero percent slope. Sites only have a foot or two of fall from one end to the other. Lift stations are a must for sanitary. You only have to dig a few feet down to hit water too so your lakes can only have a limited depth.
That being said somebody definitely dropped the ball when designing the drainage for our site. That was a 5 or 10 year rain event at best. I'm afraid to think what will happen when we get the big one.
__________________
I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country; the least encroachment on those invaluable privileges makes my blood boil. Benjamin Franklin
I'll bet it was something as simple as let's design for a 20 year storm versus a 50 year storm, or the drainage canals were not being properly maintained. We had that issue come up about 20 years ago down here where the Kawainui Marsh flood control wasn't being properly maintained and a pretty good portion of Kailua got flooded out.
__________________
Now I'm just laid bad - G35Princess
R.I.P. MBC
like ryno said, the excess canals and drainage are not nearly enough for the amount of land that is flat. most of the newly constructed streets in miami are a bit inclinced in order to drain them out (or that's the idea), but it really doesnt do anything. now the floods are along the edge of the sidewalks, rather than in the smack middle of the street.
sorry gzire, i guess it's obvious to me since i live here, and since i am an engineer. didnt mean for you to get so upset
Waikiki if you don't know is actually a swamp. Despite that fact we never have drainage problems here since we properly addressed it. I would guess that our annual rainfall in the area actually exceeds yours for Miami and with the water contribution from the mountains we should be at a situation of water volume well beyond yours. The Ala Wai Canal and proper cut/fill operations have left us with a Waikiki that is always high and dry........at least until the polar ice caps start melting.
__________________
Now I'm just laid bad - G35Princess
R.I.P. MBC
Waikiki if you don't know is actually a swamp. Despite that fact we never have drainage problems here since we properly addressed it. I would guess that our annual rainfall in the area actually exceeds yours for Miami and with the water contribution from the mountains we should be at a situation of water volume well beyond yours. The Ala Wai Canal and proper cut/fill operations have left us with a Waikiki that is always high and dry........at least until the polar ice caps start melting.
gz,
hawaii is a lot smaller than the entire state of florida... it's a lot easier to deal with a smaller problem... and dont forget the geography of hawaii, which is basically an underwater mountain, so that means that all the water can roll off (eventually). here, it gets stuck, and stays stuck for long periods of time. i am not too familiar with the rain fall numbers for hawaii, but i would think they're not as bad as miami... remember that we're in hurricane alley. the numbers dont really matter much because here it gets flooded in a very short span anyways... the rainy season here begins towards the end of may, and doesnt stop till fall. it rains EVERYDAY in june...
Smoke while the topography of Florida is pretty flat, there is still a lot that can be done to alleviate the drainage problems.
Here's the simple version for you: A certain amount of rainwater water will leach into the ground & the balance cannot be readily accepted by the existing soil conditions and ground topography. Essentially when these points are reached, then the balance of the water is purely relegated to runoff and directly contributes to flooding.
In reference to my Waikiki example, you must remember that Waikiki is a swamp, so the ground is already close to the saturation point. You also failed to consider in that situation that due to the rainfall in Hawaii the ground is nearer the saturation point in the mountain areas. This in combination with the severe ground slope due to the mountains means the rain cannot leach into the soils as if it was sitting on flatter ground (assuming the soil conditions are equal). This leads to a situation where a good portion of the rainwater goes right into Waikiki over the ground surface, storm drains, and rivers (both surface and subsurface)........and when it comes down, it comes down fast. This means that the water collected by Waikiki not only is from Waikiki proper, but also the surrounding areas.
Now in ryno's case, as he is pointing out, there isn't a good change in the grades so the problem with ponding is definitely an issue. If I had been looking at the design, I'd pay attention to the elevation of the residences with regards to the drainage areas (especially what happens if the water rises on you). Stilting houses or increasing fill to elevate houses are common small scale ways to address drainage issues. On a large scale you look at drainage canals (i.e. the Ala Wai Canal in Waikiki) to help divert and drain waters.
When people design drainage they look at storm cycles. In simple terms they look at how much rainfall an X-year storm will produce (i.e. a 20 year storm, a 30 year storm, etc.). They then design based not only on the rainfall of this storm event, but also how much of this rainfall will actually contribute to flooding (again as noted above, some of the rain will leach into the soil, a certain amount will evaporate, and a certain amount is routed from higher elevations based on the ground topography, etc.).
My original point with ryno's drainage problem is this (again in simple terms for you).........if there's this much of a ponding issue with a simple rainstorm, what is going to happen when a 20-year or 30-year storm hits? In all probability this isn't as severe a storm as what had been used to design the residential site. I don't know about you, but I'd be really upset if a rather simple event is causing this much trouble. A moderate sorm will end up killing your home, your possessions, all your memories stored in that house (documents, pictures, videos, etc.), maybe that's acceptable to you, but it isn't for me.
When you receive your degree in Civil Engineering and 12 years of experience, please come back and we can intelligently discuss this issue with me.
__________________
Now I'm just laid bad - G35Princess
R.I.P. MBC
florida was once covered in water, and it will once again be covered in water. there is nothing to prevent this. so the storm that you are predicted, really means nothing to me. what exactly do you mean by 20 - 30 year storm anyways?
i am not majoring in civil, but computer. however, i do have to take many of the same courses as civil.
Smoke, let me expand the concept to you. On a large scale the Florida government or private developers could go with sheetpiles to surround areas that have increased fill. You build on this at several feet above the surrounding land. Another alternative is the use of good old concrete piles. Using the piles, you can once again raise the elevation of your buildings and such so that the main sections of the structure are above ground. Supplemented with proper water proofing and pumps in the lower and foundation areas and you can get an adequate system should there be a severe rain event.
The short of it is this. If there is enough money involved we can build pretty much anything we want to. Once the money starts going and corners are cut, that's when you start to see problems. "Cheap is good, free is better" is not necessarily a good or accurate saying.
Now.......let's use the example of a 30-year storm. This refers to a storm of enough severity that you would not reasonably expect see it but once every 30 years. Within a shorter time period you can expect to see a storm of lesser severity. Think of it this way, the longer the period associated with the storm the more severe your design conditions are.
This doesn't necessarily mean you will see this storm every 30 years. Yes it's a bit confusing, but here's where your probabilities class comes into play.............just because you had a 30 year storm event last month doesn't mean you're good for 30 years, just that the probability is you wont see it for that length of time. A good example of this are the two hurricanes that passed your way this past year. Both were very severe and you wouldn't expect to see them so close together, but it happened......it's mother nature.
Civil is the largest discipline of the engineering branches and I happened to go to a university that emphasized diversity, so I've got a ton of design credits for wastewater, geotech, fluids/hydraulics, steel, concrete, traffic, transportation, etc. So I'm a jack of all trades, master of none, but my knowledge base is rather diverse. As you get more into your field you'll notice that the base curriculum is going to be very different than the Civils.
__________________
Now I'm just laid bad - G35Princess
R.I.P. MBC
Smoke, let me expand the concept to you. On a large scale the Florida government or private developers could go with sheetpiles to surround areas that have increased fill. You build on this at several feet above the surrounding land. Another alternative is the use of good old concrete piles. Using the piles, you can once again raise the elevation of your buildings and such so that the main sections of the structure are above ground. Supplemented with proper water proofing and pumps in the lower and foundation areas and you can get an adequate system should there be a severe rain event.
The short of it is this. If there is enough money involved we can build pretty much anything we want to. Once the money starts going and corners are cut, that's when you start to see problems. "Cheap is good, free is better" is not necessarily a good or accurate saying.
Now.......let's use the example of a 30-year storm. This refers to a storm of enough severity that you would not reasonably expect see it but once every 30 years. Within a shorter time period you can expect to see a storm of lesser severity. Think of it this way, the longer the period associated with the storm the more severe your design conditions are.
This doesn't necessarily mean you will see this storm every 30 years. Yes it's a bit confusing, but here's where your probabilities class comes into play.............just because you had a 30 year storm event last month doesn't mean you're good for 30 years, just that the probability is you wont see it for that length of time. A good example of this are the two hurricanes that passed your way this past year. Both were very severe and you wouldn't expect to see them so close together, but it happened......it's mother nature.
Civil is the largest discipline of the engineering branches and I happened to go to a university that emphasized diversity, so I've got a ton of design credits for wastewater, geotech, fluids/hydraulics, steel, concrete, traffic, transportation, etc. So I'm a jack of all trades, master of none, but my knowledge base is rather diverse. As you get more into your field you'll notice that the base curriculum is going to be very different than the Civils.
ok look, most of the homes (at least in miami) are not in a direct threat. yes, the streets do get flooded, but the homes that are located near the bay or in flood zone areas tend to be elevated. in fact, it's an uphill climb in order to get to these homes. the homes that are on higher grounds usually have extremely good sewer systems (this is in referrence to the newer constructions around the city). the older constructions are a bit of a problem. the geniuses that designed these suburbs didnt take into account that they were built in a HOLE! now these specific areas need great help in times of flood, coincidence that one of the major floods zones in all of florida is called SWEETWATER. but dont be swayed by just one picture that you witnessed. not all of florida is that bad. most of the west coast does not have the severity of flooding as the east coast does (im not saying they dont flood, im saying it's not as bad). now, that i established that homes are not in direct threats.. i will tell you where the problem really lies... in the STREETS. like ive been saying, homes are not in threat, but once the city is flooded, you basically cannot leave your home. to fix these flooding problems, it would take YEARS and millions of dollars to cover EVERY inch of florida. you live in a state the size of our biggest lake, it's a vast difference that you seemingly cannot comprehend. if you notice, ryno's pic was taking during the time that it was still raining. i bet it only took a day for the water to clear up.
in the more rural part of florida (which is basically everything outside of miami) their flooding issues arent of much concern, because most of those homes were constructed on high grounds.
