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Old 10-28-2005, 04:12 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Once again . . . . Tire Feathering question ** Pictures **

I know this has been touched on several times but I am getting so damn annoyed about hearing Tire Feathering is a normal tire condition for high performance sports coupes that I would prefer hearing from the masses here at 6MT.net

Is Tire feathering such a common part of sports coupes that it is acceptable? As noted here:
http://www.g35frenzy.com/forum/printthread.php?t=50

Am I really expected to demount my tires from the rims, remount them on the opposite side and switch them to the other side of the car to ensure I get the most out of my tires?

I have recently discovered severe tire feathering on the inside of my front right tire ONLY!!! ie. Not both sides.

I have been told in not so many words by my dealership that this is "not their problem, it is my problem" I had 20000 kms on the car when the road noise was becoming too ridiculous to avoid any longer. Apparently I have been driving my car on really bad roads which has caused my camber to be off . . . what a load of BS. IMO, I never knew that type of alignment problem(camber/heel/toe) could be caused by pot holes, I just assumed right to left misalignment occured in poor road conditions.

To this day my alignment is perfect other than the camber. My car does not pull to any direction either under power or under breaking. I am partially aware that road course vehicles will have major camber adjustments done to improve handling and would result in excess tire wear to the inside of the tire. My car has not been lowered so the height has not effected my camber.

Could I have knocked the camber out by driving over a pot-hole or do you believe that the camber was not properly calibrated from the factory?
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Old 10-29-2005, 11:22 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I'd imagine most of the boards have discussed this ad naseum, but I understand your concern and will summarize and expound. Please note that I'm being general and not specifically describing your situation.

You've posted on this before, I'm referencing for historical purposes.
http://www.6mt.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13185


The performance tires put onto sports cars, like the G35/350Z, are going to be much more susceptible to abnormal tire wear from all sorts of conditions. If something is marginally out of whack, the soft rubber will show relatively quickly as compared to the tires on, say, a Toyota Camry. Frankly, you're lucky if you're getting over 18-20k (miles) on a set of the stocker Michelin Pilot Sports; if you don't like that fact (which it is a fact), get harder-rubber tires (and less grippy by measure) and accept the results. The Pilots are one of the best summer tires out there, but they trade treadlife for absolute street-legal grip. In many regards, they are a race tire with a tread design.

Tire noise is mostly caused by uneven tread depth oriented to the rolling direction; i.e., the leading edge of the tread in the direction of rotation is higher or lower than the trailing edge. The in/out difference (towards or away from the center of the tread) is irrelevant in tire noise - UNLESS the treadblock is completely gone - but then all rules are thrown out the window.

For argument's sake, tire noise is also caused by harmonics; if the tread blocks are large or are all the same size, a harmonic can form which translates to more sound/noise. Careful inspection of the tread on almost any modern tire will show that the size of each treadblock is different from the neighbouring blocks; typically the size gradually increases and decreases around the circumference. This is not useful here, but perhaps interesting to note.

That all said, here's the deal.

First: Feathering/cupping is not caused by camber. Exclusive of other alignment issues, camber wear is an even wearing of the inside or outside treadblocks. There is no cupping or feathering, no excess tire noise (until the treadblock is gone, but that's a different question). Camber can dramatically increase the impact toe/balance/suspension problems have on tire wear, but does not cause these problems independently.

If you were to look at a tire that had no abnormal wearing aside from camber wear, it would have a perfectly smooth section on the primary wear side of the tread and a full and normal treadblock on the remainder of the tire. I used to get this a LOT with my Neon ACR, I ran -2.5 degrees front camber on high performance tires for long straight-line miles. I don't have pics, but I have extreme cases where the inside block had worn completely away to the point of being near-polished and the outside looked practically new.

On both the G and the 350Z, the rear wheels exhibit noticable negative camber, if I were to guess I'd put it at about -1 degree. The front is effectively zero camber. The camber in the rear will help keep the car straight under power, limiting the tendency of the rear end to want to pass the front end under hard acceleration (i.e., the tendency to want to do donuts) or acceleration in a corner.

Second: This kind of problem could also be the result of an assembly problem in the suspension or a damaged/worn bushing, NVH (Noise/Vibration/Harshness) insulator or similar. That's hard to find, but a dealer or a reputable shop could go over the entire subsection of the suspension and check each mounting, bushing, bracket and bolt for proper installation and adjustment/torque.

Third, and related to above, it could be caused by a worn/failed suspension component. Most specifically, you could look at the strut on the feathered side and check to see if it is leaking fluid. Although hard to check, you could also verify that the car feels equally stiff on both front corners by trying to bounce the suspension when your body. NOTE, *IF* you do this, don't press/bounce the fender, press/bounce the top of the strut tower.

Fourth, it can also be caused by improper tire balancing, and this is much cheaper/easier to check. Bring the car to a good and reputable tire shop (or, if you trust them, your dealer), have them pull the wheel and check the balance.

Failing to find a problem in those areas, you're once again looking at alignment, and most likely toe.

In a "proper" alignment, all tire wear (cupping, feathering, camber wear) should be nearly perfectly mirror identical on the tires in the same position (front to front, or rear to rear). In an abnormal alignment, wear can become uneven side-to-side. In my link above, I mentioned that feathering/cupping is a sign of toe adjustment being out of whack.

In any of the above cases, don't let the fact that it's on the right front isolate you to that side of the car - the problem could be on the opposite side but translating to a tracking problem on the tire-afflicted side (with the possible exception of tire balance). Do ensure that the car is fully checked if possible.

So far as your notes about changes to the suspension dynamics, there are a lot of things that can impact the alignment of a car. Alignment will slowly change over time just with the heat cycles of day/night, summer/winter. The suspension doesn't warm up/cool down at the same rate in all places, and this can lead to "heat creep".

Driving will impact alignment - you have 3500lbs of car and an uneven surface. Your alignment will very slowly work out of true over time just from normal use without any dramatic event.

Hard hits, like potholes, rocks or (gasp) curbing will also affect alignment.

Normal wear to the suspension will cause alignment changes. Bushings wear, allowing more movement than designed, bolts loosen, metal bends. This is all slow impact, and shouldn't be the case on a 2 year old car, but all of note.

As a side note, the driver plays a role in tire wear in a way that most people don't consider. Again, referring to my Neon ACR, the camber would change by -0.2 degrees and toe by about +0.1 degrees when I sat in the driver's seat. These are small numbers (and I'm a small guy, 150lbs), but in an autocross environment can make a huge difference. For a normal passenger car it's a bit extreme, but I would get my Neon aligned with either me sitting in the seat or ~150lbs in the driver seat.

Hope this was useful, it was certainly long.

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Old 10-30-2005, 11:01 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I thought I remember reading somewhere that one of the allignment parameters was not adjustable on the 2003-2004 G35/350Z's.

Not sure if it was Toe, Camber or Caster... but somewhere in one of the threads, they said this was the reason for the unrepairable "problem" with tire feathering.

You'd think that with a vehicle like an Infiniti, they'd at least make the vehicle configurable enough that the owner could adjust these types of things to his/her liking.... be it for long tire wear on road use, or shorter tire wear and better handling for track useage.
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Old 10-30-2005, 05:17 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by partyman66
You'd think that with a vehicle like an Infiniti, they'd at least make the vehicle configurable enough that the owner could adjust these types of things to his/her liking.... be it for long tire wear on road use, or shorter tire wear and better handling for track useage.
What's sad is that some very inexpensive cars have a huge amount of toe/camber adjustment from the factory. Any car that wants to claim to be a sports car should have every basic aspect of alignment adjustable at the least.

So far as what Infiniti should do to help its customers - they should:

a) ensure the suspension design allows for normal shifting of parts over time (or due to errors in design), and allows for adjustment in all alignment aspects to compensate;

b) deliver a vehicle that has a straight and true alignment with the maximum effort placed on fuel efficiency and longevity of components.

Kal.
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Old 10-30-2005, 07:29 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Kal., that's great info. I don't have any problem with my tire or alignment, but I'll book mark your reply. Thanks.
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Old 11-01-2005, 11:55 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Kal . . . thank you for the comments . . . I actually have inside tire wear and feathering. I will take pictures this afternoon and post them here . . . I am not having the same condition on both sides of the vehicle, mostly just the right side.

I do not have PS Tires, the car came with Potenza RE-050s instead . . . not sure why this is . . . but it is. I thought I was getting PSports but I did not

My biggest problem is that the dealership is not telling me what everyone else seems to be saying. They claim that I replace the tires and get an alignment. This will FIX the problem. Now I read that there might not be a camber adjustment, or a way to fix this issue even with an alignment.

I just received my letter back from Infiniti Canada denying any liability to my current alignment problem. In fact the SOBs actually insinuated that a scuff on my Left side wheel (caused at a car wash and was fixed my the dealership) could be the reason my Right side camber alignment is off. WTF??

I will post pics later if it stops raining!
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Old 11-04-2005, 05:09 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Here are pictures of the right and left side:

Right with all the inside wear and what I think is feathering:





Now left side:




To think the dealership said to replace both front tires . . . I am not sure but I think the Left side looks pretty good!? But the right is obviously fooked!!! what am I smiling about damn it!
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Old 11-04-2005, 05:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
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defunk...how many miles?
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Old 11-04-2005, 05:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I have a whopping 21000 kms or roughly 13020 miles on my car . . .

It is a good thing I am storing it for the winter cause the rears need replaced too . . . . . . .
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Old 11-05-2005, 08:39 AM   #10 (permalink)
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You definitely have camber wear or something similar, and there may well be feathering as well.

With the treadblocks almost completely gone it's difficult to say, especially face-on. Do you have the ability to get a side-shot that can show the either the leading or trailing edge being less worn than the remainder of the block?

How are the tread depth measurements across the worn tire, and how do they compare to the "good" tire? Be objective, get measurements rather than visually inspect; make sure you get a measurement at 4 equidistant points across the tread width so you can see if there is any hard-to-see wear on the driver's side that might relate to the passenger side.

This is certainly unusual tire wear, and I can see good reason to be unhappy about it.

I won't go into the Infiniti response.

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Old 11-05-2005, 10:55 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Like Kal said, it's definitely abnormal to have the inside wear that much more. However, the wear on the inside looks like just "normal" wear -- NOT feathering.
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